BIOLA grad details how she graduated debt free

because I would listen to the Christian radio station and the big money guy at the time was Larry Burkett. He would pound the pulpit every day that borrowing money was a sin, especially for college. He would say you could work 40 hours, take 20 hours, and graduate in 3 years and be done. Sure, if you have a simple major. But if your desire was to really learn the material and go to graduate school in that field, you simply couldn’t.

Take for example the “go to community college” route. Now, in California community colleges are pretty good, but where I am at and where I am from CC’s are glorified high schools. You take Calculus, or Chemistry, or Physics (the science major classes, not the gen ed classes) at a local CC and you might get an A, but you only covered 1/2 the material of the equivalent University class. It will kill your career before you start. You are expected to go through the gauntlet and learn the material the hard way. There is simply no other way to do it. Plus, you earn an A in the Calculus I,II, III and IV. Then you get the Electromagnetism I and you learn that the Calculus you learned was child’s play, and you have to teach yourself the real deal to survive…no one is going to do it for you. Its even worse when you get to Grad School.

Across from my office there is the undergrad Biology student lounge. Probably a dozen Biology majors “live” there during the school year, doing little else but studying and eating…

[Mark_Smith] You worked 50 hours a week AND took 20+ hours of classes? AND kept a 3.5 gpa doing it?

Did you walk up hill both ways in the snow with the wind blowing 60 mph as well?

[Mark_Smith] You should be glad you didn’t enroll in my class…no way you’d have made it.

I guess what I’m thinking about your case is that if college was so easy that you could accomplish it with so little effort at actually learning, then it was something you could teach yourself and you didn’t need school. All you wanted was a sheet of paper so you could go get a job…

Now, Mark, there you go again making blanket statements. You don’t know anything about me or my situation, but you don’t even stop with ignorant, uninformed statements about my deeds. You somehow feel qualified to diagnose my motives as well. I am trying to keep this light and conversational, but you are making that very difficult with personal attacks, wild guesses and ignorant assumptions. Can’t you acknowledge that despite your vast 5 years of teaching experience at a secular college, there might be some students out there of a kind you have not encountered? Especially since you already acknowledge you have no personal knowledge of Christian colleges?

want me to admit that you had a great academic career at a Christian college, maxing out your learning, taking 7+ courses each semester, plus working 50+ hours, plus attending church I assume, during your brilliant undergraduate years? All for the glory of not taking on any debt?

You sir, are a true genius. I give you credit.

For the record, I NEVER attacked you.

but I am more interested in my students LEARNING something, than graduating with no debt.

[Chip Van Emmerik]

[josh p]

In my opinion these types of conversations are pretty tough to have because everyone is at a different level. I have a friend who is a bi-vocational pastor that works full time in his secular job and is taking one or two classes a semester in a PHD program. He has five children and is still an excellent father. I however could never do that. I am starting full time school this semester while also working full time and I have only two children. That will llikely be the absolute limit of what I can handle. The point is that some people can easily graduate without debt but for others it is a struggle. For someone pursuing the ministry like myself it seems prudent to graduate debt free but for someone who is going to go right in to a high paying job a little debt might not be too terrible.

Josh,

There are no employment certainties. How many graduates in the last five years expected to go right into a high paying job but couldn’t find work because of the state of the economy? Biblically, the best pattern is to do everything reasonably within our power to avoid debt as much as possible. The borrower is still servant of the lender (Proverbs 22:7). That doesn’t make debt innately sinful, though I think many believers will have to give an account for unwise and unnecessary debt someday when they stand before the Lord. In some cases, I don’t think it is possible to graduate from college completely debt free without stretching school out over 40 years. On the other hand, I don’t know many college students who couldn’t get by more cheaply or afford to stretch school out a couple of years in order to reduce or eliminate debt. There is no universal law that says we must finish our BA in 4 years, or else we have somehow failed.

Chip. I absolutely agree that it is best to avoid debt. I would even go as far as to say it is foolish to borrow if it is at all avoidable. You are also correct that there are no guaranteed jobs out there. But there are some where you can have more certainty than others. A friend of mine that graduated from high school the same year as I became a doctor while I went directly into the workforce. By the time he was finished I had made approximately 500,000 dollars and he had substantial debt. There were many job offers available to him when he graduated (as is the case with medical doctors in many if not most cases) and he has now paid off his debt and surpassed me. Was it unwise for him to take on debt? Maybe but IMO there are factors to consider that make it not totally black and white.

[josh p]…IMO there are factors to consider that make it not totally black and white.

[Mark_Smith]

but I am more interested in my students LEARNING something, than graduating with no debt.

[Chip Van Emmerik]

[josh p]…IMO there are factors to consider that make it not totally black and white.

Totally agree, Josh. However, you would agree that doctors entering the medical profession would be a minority exception that most college students wouldn’t equate to, right?

Yeah definitely.

Mark:

I did my undergrad in Emergency & Disaster Management while I was an anti-terrorism planner for the military full-time, taught Sunday School at church and had a family life. Not everybody goes to college from 18-22, lives in a dorm and does nothing but study.

There are a huge number of professionals who go back to school and get their undergrad degrees in their late twenties, thirties or beyond. These students don’t fit the stereotype of going to college to “get a piece of paper.” They are working professionals who went back to college to learn something.

I hear what you’re saying, Mark, but there are a lot of different people with very different motives going to college. I got my MA under the same circumstances as my undergrad; (1) fulltime job, (2) church ministries, (3) family life. I’m studying for my MDiv now under these circumstances as well!

You will only get out of school what you put into it. Some people skate by, do the minimum and graduate. Others apply themselves, actually understand the material and can apply it.

I was trying to make, which apparently Chip and Tyler disagree with, is that the average student who thinks “I am going to graduate with no debt by working 40+ hours a week and take 21 hours each semester because I am young and don’t need to eat or sleep” is more interested in finishing and not getting into debt than they are in learning. I GUARANTEE that the student I describe does NOT do the reading assignments, crams the night before the exam, does little studying, NEVER thinks about the large issues of the class they are taking, and has a simple “easy to complete” major. How can I guarantee that? I see it a couple of dozen times EVERY semester just in the classes I teach.

At my University the two most popular majors, BY FAR (I mean double anything else) are communications and criminal justice. Another high contender is art. Often students tell me all of their major classes have open book tests…No/few reading assignments. It is truly scary.

I often get students who put off taking their required science electives until the end. I am not exaggerating to say that MANY can’t write complete sentences, let alone a paragraph. They have know idea how to use Microsoft Word, which means they haven’t been writing papers. They lack basic research skills with the internet. Often they have no idea how to study for exams even though they are seniors because their major classes required no memorization.

I served in the Marine Corps 4 years before going to college. Even with the GI Bill I graduated with debt. But I loved every minute of it. I love learning. While in the Marines I thought about completing my degree on base. It would’ve been easy. I could’ve completed a degree in “ELECTRONICS MANAGEMENT” in 2.5 years. But I sat in on one class and realized it was a joke and I waited to go to real college when I was done.

I had a friend who wanted to be an officer so he completed the Electronics Management degree. He applied for 3 years to get into Officer Candidate School with the supposedly Marine Corps approved EM degree. They wouldn’t accept it. Even they knew the degree was a joke!

[Mark_Smith]

I was trying to make, which apparently Chip and Tyler disagree with, is that the average student who thinks “I am going to graduate with no debt by working 40+ hours a week and take 21 hours each semester because I am young and don’t need to eat or sleep” is more interested in finishing and not getting into debt than they are in learning. I GUARANTEE that the student I describe does NOT do the reading assignments, crams the night before the exam, does little studying, NEVER thinks about the large issues of the class they are taking, and has a simple “easy to complete” major. How can I guarantee that? I see it a couple of dozen times EVERY semester just in the classes I teach.

Mark,

My point was that this is not a guarantee you can back up, especially with your self-reported limited experience. You are making ridiculous and foolish statements now. I can GUARANTEE you that I thought “I am going to graduate with no debt by working 40+ hours a week and taking 21 hours each semester because I am young and don’t need to sleep” (if you knew me you wouldn’t question whether I ate), and I WASN’T more interested in finishing without debt than I was in learning. I can GUARANTEE you I also went to school with a number of other people who worked 40+ hours a week, took 17-18 (not usually the 20+ I was taking) credits a semester and were interested in graduating with as little debt AND as much learning as possible. These students did ALL the reading assignments, exceeded the requirements for class projects, studied continuously and constantly discussed large issues of the classes they were taking both in the classroom and out of it with peers. The students at my undergrad all carried double majors in Bible and something else, and the majority of them were intensely dedicated to the pursuit at hand. Sadly, this was not everyone, but it was the majority of my small, accredited Christian college.

The majority of your fellow students took 17-18 hours, worked 40+ hours a week, yet still met in discussion groups, laboring over the issues of your classes…wow, I want to see this school!

Have a nice evening.

Giving you the benefit of the faith that what you describe is accurate, WILL YOU ADMIT that what you describe is H I G H L Y unusual and is H I G H L Y atypical of American college student behavior?

I teach around 160 general ed students each semester and I have NEVER seen what you describe…

I said from the start that I agreed there was a serious problem. My main contention was your blanket statements. I would agree what I am describing is a minority in secular undergraduate programs. However, I think the numbers shift among graduate students, and I have seen a much more serious approach among Christian school undergraduates on the whole than among their secular undergraduates. So no, I wouldn’t go so far as to call it highly unusual or atypical. Furthermore, I am shocked to hear you say you never see it - not even one time. Makes me wonder why your school isn’t able to recruit any of the upper tier students - not even one.