In post 7 of the thread titled http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-does-regeneration-precede-faith]Does Regeneration Precede Faith? I wrote:
I intend to write an article for my blog on the subject of regeneration preceding faith. I will start a new thread on SI to discuss my article as well as post a link to that article here.
I have titled my article http://canjamerican.blogspot.com/2010/02/regeneration-precedes-faith.html Regeneration Precedes Faith . This paragraph explains my purpose:
My purpose in writing this article is to show that regeneration, as it is understood by Calvinists, must precede faith. To that end, we will first look at the Canons of Dordt, specifically the section presenting man's spiritual depravity. Following that, we will see from the writing and preaching of selected Calvinists that they affirm the idea of regeneration preceding faith. This article will conclude with a look at the story of the raising of Lazarus from John 11. In my opinion, it is one of the best illustrations of regeneration preceding faith.
I do not moderate comments on my blog so feel free to post comments there or here, whether you agree or disagree.
Here are links to archived SI discussions on the same subject.
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=7755]What is first – repentance or belief?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=1738]Which came first -- Regeneration or Faith?
http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=2844]"That Spurgeon's sermons teach that regeneration precedes and gives rise to faith is impossible to deny."
The link in the first post has changed to http://sharperiron.org/spurgeons-sermons-teach-regeneration-precedes-and...this but Mike Riley’s link has expired.
If you would like to have a PDF of my article you may email me.
more Spurgeon
In my article I quote from Spurgeon's sermon titled http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols16-18/chs979.pdf ]Faith and Regeneration (1871) .
I found another message by Spurgeon titled http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols7-9/chs531.pdf ]The Warrant of Faith (1863) , where he uses the term regeneration as a synonym for salvation.
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1 John 5:1
In my article I quote from both Spurgeon and Piper regarding 1 John 5:1. The Spurgeon quote is in the previous post. Here is what Piper wrote:
This morning I viewed http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3783 ]a video by James White , which he posted yesterday, on the same passage. The video is slightly under 19 minutes and here is what he said.
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More links
In reading through the blogs I subscribe to with Google Reader, I came across a YouTube link of John Piper titled, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsPzSKI6jvY ]Believing is the Evidence of the New Birth . He is teaching on 1 John 5:1 and the video is slightly longer than 6 minutes. In the video, while doing hand actions, he states:
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Attachments
Since we are now able to add attachments to posts I am adding the PDF of my blog article.
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Calvin and Regeneration
So as not to derail the http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-lordship ]Lordship discussion, I am responding to Bob's statement on regeneration in post 3 here.
Bob, I assume you reference Calvin as an argument against the title of this thread. After all, if Calvin rejected the idea of regeneration before faith, then any Calvinist affirming the idea must be more extreme than Calvin. It is that same idea that Geisler uses in his book to establish the difference between moderate and extreme Calvinists.
There are 2 problems with the argument though, the first being that Calvin is not the founder of Calvinism. John died in 1564, more than 50 years before the Synod of Dordt met to resolve the issues raised by the Remonstrants. Whether Calvin would have held exactly to the Canons of Dordt does not diminish their truth. You also did not provide quotations from Calvin’s writings so that SI readers can determine what view he held with regard to the issue. I think his words and reference to the source would be helpful to this discussion.
Secondly, it is quite possible, that he used the term regeneration as a synonym for salvation. In post 1 of this thread, I show that Spurgeon did the same in his 1863 sermon, but in his 1871 sermon he distinguishes between regeneration and salvation
If I understand you here, you are saying that faith is internal to man and is what man contributes to his salvation after conviction. Calvinists affirm that this conviction of the Spirit is regeneration, and that faith is a part of the gift of God given at regeneration, as Ephesians 2:8 shows. The Piper video linked in post 3 of this thread shows the relationship of regeneration to faith.I recognize that there exists a gender dispute in the Ephesians 2 passage, which Jim McClarty dealt with at the 2008 Sovereign Grace Bible conference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfEZZOeflL8 ]This video (7:50) explaining the neuter demonstrative pronoun is from that sermon.
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Mike Riley's PDF
Mike Riley's original article linked http://sharperiron.org/spurgeons-sermons-teach-regeneration-precedes-and... ]here is no longer available. He has graciously allowed me to post this 17 page article of Spurgeon quotes regarding the issue of regeneration preceding faith.
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Jim McCarty on Ephesians 2:8
I just watched the video of Jim McCarty on Ephesians 2:8, and I think he is correct that the neuter pronoun can refer collectively to the concepts preceding it because the preceding statement as a statement is considered a grammatically neutral thing.. But i don't agree that Greek pronouns always have to agree with their antecedents in gender. There are exceptions, however. The most famous one would probably be the use of a masculine pronoun to refer to the Spirit in John 14:26, 15:26, and 16:7,13-14, even though the Greek pneúma is grammatically neuter. The obvious reason for this is that the Holy Spirit is a personal being who is God, and God is always referred to in the masculine. So, conceptually, it is perfectly proper for Jesus to use a masculine pronoun, even though grammatically it isn't a normal usage. For other similar examples you could read Daniel B. Wallace's paper "Greek Grammar and the Personality of the Holy Spirit," where he offers a number of instances for consideration. Wallace makes an important and, I think, obvious point when he says:
In my view, the use of toúto in Ephesians 2:8 is a similar type of exception (even though in this case we are dealing with a demonstrative pronoun). The nearest antecedent in the Greek text (pístis, faith) is that to which the pronoun (toúto) most likely refers, and it uses the neuter because, although faith is grammatically feminine, it is nonetheless a concept that as such is in reality is neither masculine nor feminine, and so the neuter pronoun is used.
For what it's worth, here are some of my own teaching notes on Ephesians 2:8:
Hope this has been helpful in the discussion.
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Anonymous wrote...
An individual identifying himself as "anonymous" posted a few comments on my blog. I have added those comments and my responses here.
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Reply to anonymous
This is a lengthier reply to the preceding post and the questions from "anonymous."
In John 5:24 we see a process, which begins with hearing and ends with eternal life. There is no everlasting life prior to believing “in Him who sent Me,” and hearing the word is a prerequisite to believing. Hearing precedes believing and believing precedes eternal life. What verse 24 does not address is the whom that is capable of hearing. For that we must go back to verse 21.
Here we note that the Father raises the dead and gives life to those He has raised. So the order of this process is – Father raising the dead to life, those now raised hear the word, believe, and are promised everlasting life. The phrase “passed from death into life,” summarizes the process. Those who were once spiritually dead have been raised by the Father, which provides them with hearing ears, leading to belief and eternal life.
The huge difference between Monergistic Calvinism and Synergistic Non-Calvinism/Arminianism is the question of whether God raises all men (without exception) to life. This passage seems to affirm the monergistic approach as the second half of verse 21 speaks of the Son giving life to “whom He will.”
A friend of mine in a recent email to me posed this question:
I believe that regeneration and faith are simultaneous activities, with regeneration being the cause and faith being the effect, I don’t believe an individual can be regenerated and them sometime later exercise faith. In the case of Lazarus, his body was regenerated and he immediately exited the tomb. Another excellent example is in Acts 16 where we read about Lydia’s salvation.
Notice that when the Lord opened her heart she believed. God regenerates her heart, she hears Paul’s message, and responds in belief. Clearly the cause of belief is God opening her heart.
I agree that regeneration comes at the time of faith as there is no time lag between regeneration and faith, but it is regeneration that causes faith, not vice versa. Since I affirm monergistic salvation I recognize faith as being given at regeneration. A synergistic approach identifies faith as that which man contributes to his salvation. There is a vast gulf between those positions!
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questions from another thread
In the http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-monergism-vs-synergism-%E2%80%93-part-1 ]Monergism vs. Synergism – Part 1 thread, Kevin Miller in post 14, asked some questions. I am responding to them here.
If we understand that all men stand under God’s condemnation, not because God caused them to sin, but because Adam, as our representative, sinned. Also that God would be completely just to cast all mankind into hell because of our sin. The fact that he extends mercy to some (the believing ones) does not indicate injustice on His part. All are due wrath, some receive wrath, some receive mercy. He “forces” His mercy on some of His sworn enemies, but none of these so forced wish they had not been.
I intend to cover the “how” of evangelism in Part 4 of this series, and will look at decision-ism then. Since preaching (proclamation) of the Gospel is the ‘means’ the Holy Spirit uses to cause the elect to be converted, preaching that focuses on the decision (the end result) is, to my way of thinking, faulty.
When I have opportunity to preach my main focus is to faithfully say what the text says, while leaving the results to the Spirit. I look at preaching as providing the Holy Spirit with tools He can use in the conversion of the elect, and I want to make sure I give Him plenty to work with. I have eliminated most of the stories and illustrations I used to use in favor of quotes from dead preachers (Spurgeon is my favorite) and lyrics from theologically sound music. I think there is a danger in calling for a response, other than the response required by the text. Passionate preaching of the text is required but decisions are the Spirit’s job.
There is no unanimity amongst monergists with regard to the age of accountability. I have a view, but am not convinced that my view is correct, as I find arguments opposed to my view to be very sound. I am unprepared to state that there is NO age of accountability, as each individual has differing mental capacity.
Here are some links that might be helpful:
http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html?mainframe=/calvinism/boettn... Infant Salvation, excerpted from The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, by Loraine Boettner
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1245734/posts ]Calvinism: Its Doctrine Of Infant Salvation
I can’t think of a verse that would deny the possibility, but one-year-olds are not able to comprehend much about much. Regeneration precedes faith logically, as regeneration is the cause of faith, I don’t know any monergist who would say that an individual can be regenerated without simultaneously expressing faith. There is no time gap between regeneration and exercise of faith.
The best illustration from the Bible is the story of the raising of Lazarus. God, in the person of Christ, proclaimed life to Lazarus corpse; the corpse came to life, and exited the tomb. For Lazarus, one moment he was dead, and the next moment he realized he was alive, and also realized that he didn’t cause his life to be restored. Once life was restored he did the natural thing – he left the tomb. Regeneration and faith (marked by his obedience to the command to come forth) are evident in that event.
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Passed From Death Unto Life
JohnBrian, according to your idea the receiving of life logically precedes the hearing of the Word. So according to your idea, logically the receiving of life is totally separate from the hearing of the Word. However, that idea is contradicted by the following statement of Jesus Christ:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
Let us look at the verse which speaks of passing from death unto life:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
According to you the sinner passes from death into life before he even hears or believes--despite the fact that the Lord Jesus says that those who hear and believe are "passed from death unto life."
In his commentary on these verses John Calvin says:
"For it would not be sufficient to understand what he formerly taught, that he came 'to raise the dead,' unless we also knew the manner in which he restores us to life. Now he affirms that life is obtained by 'hearing' his word, and by the word 'hearing' he means 'faith,' as he immediately afterwards declares" [emphasis mine ] (John Calvin, Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Volume Second, ed. William Pringle [Grand Rapids: Christian Classics Ethereal Library).
in agreement with the text
Jack,
Thanks for pointing out my contradiction of myself.
I agree with you and the text - it is by the hearing of the Word that the elect come to faith, In my last post I worded it:
whereas in the quote you referenced I said:Let me clarify:
The raising to life comes By MEANS of the hearing of the Word. It is the Holy Spirit who causes the hearer to hear the word - Monergists refer to that event as regeneration. Then they believe, and the life which has begun is life everlasting.
I should have, in my earlier post, listed the process this way:
The Holy Spirit causes the dead to hear the word (by changing their stony hearts into fleshly hearts); they believe (the exercise of faith, which is gifted to them by the Holy Spirit; they have a life that is everlasting.
All of that happens because the Father seeks the sinner, not because the sinner seeks the Father.
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Quickened Together With Him
JohnBrian, according to your view you have the "hearing" of the gospel logically preceding "believing" the gospel. But here the Apostle Paul reveals that one's regeneration is through a process that is described as being "together" with Christ:
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:12-13).
According to Paul this quickening results after or as a result of forgiveness of sins:
"...hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."
Therefore the quickening cannot possibly happen until the sinner believes because this forgiveness is entirely dependent upon faith:
"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43; NIV).
Are you willing to argue that the sinner can be quickened "together" with Christ while he remains defiled by his sins?
cutting the gordian knot
what about simultaneously?
Sproul, R. C. (2005). What Is Reformed Theology?. p. 195.
The Logical Order
ChrisC, the arguments on this thread have been based on the "logical order." See post #12 on this thread.
As Sproul said:
Jack Hampton wrote: ChrisC
I think that the use of the word "precedes" makes it a bit difficult to think of 'logical order" rather than "temporal order." We usually use "precedes" in a time line sense, but it can legitimately be used for logical order instead, if everything is happening simultaneously. So my question then is: what factors involved in salvation DO happen temporally rather than logically? Is there anything that happens first in a temporal sense? When I asked earlier about the age of accountability, JohnBrian wrote, "I am unprepared to state that there is NO age of accountability, as each individual has differing mental capacity." According to that statement, "mental capacity" has to come before salvation, or at least that's what I seem to be reading. I would agree with that. Some degree of language development must be in place to be able to understand the actual words that are used to present the gospel. When I asked whether a one-year-old could be regenerated, JonhBrian responded, "I can’t think of a verse that would deny the possibility, but one-year-olds are not able to comprehend much about much." So the human factor of an ability to comprehend, in some way or another, is necessary before faith can be possible. Isn't that correct?
Also, being exposed to the Gospel must take place temporally before one can respond to the gospel, right? I can see as how this exposing of a person to the gospel is done by someone else through preaching, but it is still something that has to take place temporally before the regeneration, doesn't it? I just want to make sure I do not confuse the logical order things and the temporal order things.
Conviction
What is the temporal role of conviction? Can the Holy Spirit bring a feeling of conviction to a person through their exposure to the gospel without first (temporally) indwelling a person? Personally, I don't see why He couldn't. After all, Satan can bring feelings of fear and depression on people without indwelling them. Satan can oppress believers but not possess them. So if Satan can bring feelings to people without indwelling them, then why couldn't the Holy Spirit, who is even more powerful than Satan?
I think we have all known of people who we could tell were under conviction, but who, for whatever reason, just would not turn to God for salvation. Perhaps they are worried about their family's reaction, which would be especially true for Muslims who are under conviction, so they don't get saved.
Two separate thoughts
First, perhaps the term we are looking for is causation. Regardless of whether things are happening temporally simultaneously or temporally sequentially, the issue of this thread seems to be which things are causing other things, or leading to other things.
Second,
Are we certain that Satan/demons don't indwell? Isn't that what possession is? Further, feelings are our response. They are initiated by us, not someone else. Satan does not "cause" fear. We choose how we respond to everything we face; it is incorrect to say our feeling are somehow placed inside us by some outside force.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Chip Van Emmerik
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I personally find this
I personally find this discussion to be unfruitful and borders on intentionally delving into the unknown that wittingly or not creates strife and division.
There is no explicit text that tells us the order of salvation. The scriptures do tell us what happens at conversion. However it is entirely possible that what is mentioned first is done so for the sake of emphasis or because it is the author's point without trying to create an order.
Take 1 John 5:1. Even the "great" James White could not definitely say that his view must be the correct one. He could only argue that it is probably the correct one.
The scripture has so much in it that we need to know that we don't need to make stuff up to talk about.
Calvinists do not even agree on this issue. It is a theological nonissue.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
Spurgeon on regeneration and conversion
In my article I wrote:
In his sermon titled http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols4-6/chs178.pdf ]The Work of the Holy Spirit Spurgeon notes the difference between regeneration and conversion.
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While interesting, maybe, the
While interesting, maybe, the question is always: what does the text say? Since the text does not say, this is mere speculation and theory.
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This Life is in the Son
James, to you it may be mere speculation and theory but I believe that the Scriptures reveal in no uncertain terms that "life" or "regeneration" comes as a result of faith. Here the Apostle John says:
"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).
It is not until the sinner believes that he receives spiritual life, and the only life that the Scriptures speak of is the life which is in the Son:
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).
Upon believing the gospel the sinner is made alive by being completely identified with the Lord Jesus Christ:
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).
This quickening or giving of life is identified with "salvation," and salvation is the result of faith:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).
Upon believing the sinner is baptized by the Holy Spirit into the death of the Lord Jesus and at the samer time is baptized into His Body:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" (Ro.6:3).
In order to cling to their false theology the Calvinists must invent another regeneration which precedes the one which brings eternal life, a life which is in the Son.
Jack, while I find myself
Jack, while I find myself disagreeing with a vast number of things with you, on this point I agree.
Acts 11:17-18
17 Therefore, if God gave them the same gift that He also gave to us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, how could I possibly hinder God?”
18 When they heard this they became silent. Then they glorified God, saying, “So God has granted repentance resulting in life Or repentance to life even to the Gentiles!”
The scriptures are plain. My objection is to the theory and speculative aspects of this. By the way, Calvinists do not agree on this point, so it isn't Calvinists who must invent anything. Focus Jack.
1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.
Jack Hampton wrote: In order
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Made Us Alive
JohnBrian,
Is the following verse in regard to "regeneration" or to "conversion"?:
"...even when we were dead *in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Eph.2:5).
And this one?:
"When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions" (Col.2:23).
Thanks!
Regeneration in a Catechism
Yesterday Jeff Peterson at the http://thelightheartedcalvinist.com/ Lighthearted Calvinist posted http://thelightheartedcalvinist.com/2010/11/09/a-baptist-catechism-part-8/ Lesson 8: Regeneration of John Broadus Baptist Catechism.
A PDF of the entire catechism is available as a http://www.baptisttheology.org/documents/ACatechism-Broadus.pdf ]FREE download .
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previous discussion on infant salvation
in post 11, I responded to questions that Kevin Miller raised in the http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-monergism-vs-synergism-%E2%80%93-part-1 ]Monergism vs. Synergism – Part 1 thread, about the issue of the age of accountability.
There is a previous discussion (now closed) from 2008, titled http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=8789 ]do all babies go to heaven?
Any internal links in that thread require the "www" to be replaced by "20"
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JohnBrian wrote: In my
I was just reading through some of the posts that I hadn't read completely. I had never heard of this distinction between regeneration and conversion. I had always heard them both used in a way synonymous with salvation. If a man is converted many times in his life, does the very first experience of conversion have to happen at the same time as regeneration, or can there be a delay? Spurgeon mentioned conviction, which is a term I had a question about in another thread. There are so many similar threads that I can't keep track of them. Can a person who is regenerated resist their conviction? I suppose they can, or why would they have to be converted over and over again? Does there even have to be conversion as long as there is regeneration? Is Spurgeon just using the term conversion in the same way we would use confession, which is something God wants Christians to do over and over again? If a person does feel convicted about their sins, does that mean they have already been regenerated, even though they may not yet have taken any steps to deal with their conviction?
response to Kevin from the previous post
Yes, and most often when synergists argue against the Calvinistic use of the tem “regeneration” they are arguing against its’ use as a synonym for salvation.
From http://canjamerican.blogspot.com/2010/02/regeneration-precedes-faith.html my article :
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/regeneration_kuype... Kuyper
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=603 ]Hodge
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/regenerhodge.html Hodge
No delay! Lazarus exited the tomb immediately upon returning to life. No, regeneration always causes conversion. Yes! But they happen simultaneously with regeneration being the cause.I’m not sure exactly how Spurgeon was using the term “conversion.”
C. Matthew McMahon, from an article titled http://www.apuritansmind.com/christianwalk/McMahonHSRegenSanct.htm The Holy Spirit, Regeneration, and Sanctification .
McMahon also touches on the issue of regeneration of infants in the article.
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