Baptist state convention sued over rape at church camp

I’m not talking about the girl - I’m talking about the abuser. Read my previous comments. I specifically stated the individual abuser. I’m not talking about the girl flaunting her sexuality. I’m talking about the wider culture using sexuality for everything. I never said or implied the girl was partially responsible. Those who think so made that assumption without asking me. Whether an argument is bad or good depends on many factors. The argument that our culture is increasingly pushing sexuality into everything can’t be reasonably dismissed. This obsession with sexuality creates an atmosphere that makes abusers more comfortable abusing people, especially those whose sin nature is exerting tremendous influence in their life. Seems pretty obvious to me. Although others like to refer to the slippery slope, I’m not talking about a slippery slope, only the creation of a cultural attitude that makes abusers more comfortable abusing people. Again, seems obvious to me. If someone wishes to reject that observation, that’s fine. But to react emotionally, as some have done, reflects exactly what insurance companies are afraid of: emotional reaction apart from the facts. I never made the argument that observation leads to mass murder - That’s overstating what I’m saying. Don’t attribute arguments or conclusions to me that I never made, even if you think I am making them or if you think they are the logical result of what I said..

Frankly, some of the comments here seem to reflect our culture more than the Bible. Culture influences all of us, and today’s culture always wants to blame the individual abuser (who should be blamed - I shouldn’t even have to say that, but apparently I do) but wants to ignore how the wider culture is morally perverse and openly immoral. The wider culture does not want to see its own sin and hypocrisy. Our culture does desensitize people to sexual sin. The acceptance of sexual relationships outside of marriage and homosexual marriage are 2 examples. That, of course, does not make sexual abuse OK, but it certainly does not mean that everyone else is innocent.

…it’s still the slippery slope fallacy, Wally. You’ve failed to make the connection between consensual sin and non-consensual victimization.

Besides, when you start talking about immodesty, you are almost guaranteed to be talking about the woman’s role, specifically that of young women. That’s why Jim called you out, and think about it a moment; name a garment commonly worn by middle aged men in the Midwest that really “gives way too much information.” Except for a few wearing speedos to swim or cycling in cycling shorts, our torsos are generally covered in a loose sheath of opaque fabric from the neck to the hems of our pants, no?

I’ve been reading the thread, and I can understand where both sides are coming from. Wally is simply trying to point out a “big picture” problem in the course of discussing this particular attack. However, I can also see how his “big picture” doesn’t necessarily correlate to the particular attack and could be seen as a slippery slope. Suppose the attack had been a robbery at gunpoint at the camp. I could then come on the thread and talk about how hypocritical the church is about material matters. We are so materialistic in this society and we are always wanting more than what God has given us. That statement is certainly true. But I think Wally might be going a bit too far when he says “But I am also stating that we cannot ignore the growing open flaunting of sexuality in our culture that helps to create situations like this.” Should I say that the open flaunting of our possessions creates situations in which people rob us at gunpoint? When we as Christians live in a society with pervasive materialism and even practice materialism ourselves, that does NOT mean that we are partly responsible when people decide to rob others at gunpoint. The person who has been robbed could easily feel their attack is being downplayed if a another person puts some of the blame on societal materialism in general.

Joe, keep in mind that the charges are the forcible rape of an underage girl. Probably best not to confuse the issue by bringing in cases where both participants were of age, and were moreover already hot & bothered.

(crazy thing about those harder cases is that some courts are saying that consent can be withdrawn even during the act…which is all the more reason for young man to keep it in his pants and wait to marry a girl who takes 1 Cor. 7 seriously. But that is a side note)

Back to the topic, I am 100% for discussions of modesty and Biblical notions towards courtship, dating, and marriage….but not here. Again, the simple fact of the matter is that when we discuss these things, we are inevitably discussing them for the benefit (we hope at least) of young people in general, and young ladies in particular. So if we say these things are in part at fault for an atrocity like this case, we are in effect blaming the victim.

Jim is right. There may be times and places to decry how sexualized America has become (even on SharperIron), but not in the middle of a report of a 13 year old girl being raped. The two are two totally different topics and bringing them both into this story is insensitive and cruel, not just to the victim, but to anyone else out there who has been sexually assaulted.

Wally, there are dozens of people who read this thread that are not members of SI. Please be cognizant of that in the future.

A few comments and questions (and no matter what the responses are, I will not comment further, therefore letting others have the last word):

No one posting here knows what happened at this summer camp. To talk as if we do is arrogant. Sexual abuse situations are complicated and sometimes not what they seem on the surface. If anything happened to this girl that was wrong, then the responsible people should be punished.

This Christian camp may or may not have been negligent. If so, then it will have to face that. If not, then it almost doesn’t matter. Reputations can be ruined by misunderstanding or lies. Public opinion usually doesn’t care about the facts or the truth. Emotion determines everything. Why is an individual or organization punished even when it has done nothing wrong?

We live in a culture that is openly sexual about almost everything, yet self-righteous in its condemnation of what it believes is sexually inappropriate. Of course, beliefs about what is inappropriate are changing rapidly. The only thing left that is wrong is telling someone that something is wrong, or being insensitive about what what the cutlure says is sensitive.

Satan is a masterful destroyer. Because of sexual sin, organizations of all types have to implement policies to protect individuals and the organization. The policies, training, procedures, and, let’s be honest, the headache of trying to prevent sin combined with the cases of actual abuse and molestation that occur anyway give me amazement that we still have parents willing to send their children to Christian camps and Sunday School and that we still have people willing to volunteer for these ministries.

Churches trying to help people involved in abusive situations face tremendous challenges, Biblically and from the culture. Individuals who have been abused often face lengthy healing from that abuse, difficult but not impossible. Then we have those who have been convicted of sexual crimes who wish to attend our churches. What do we do with them? Our church has both the abused and, occassionaly, those who have abused atttend services. To turn anyone away violates the gospel message, yet we have to be very careful and honest. Our culture wants to treat abusers as pariahs for the rest of their life, yet the Bible tells us to help them.

Any honest discussion of sexual ethics (either on this website or elsewhere) should include the topic of inappropriate clothing. People should not be blamed for being sexually abused because of the clothing they wear. However, if a female is wearing very little clothing, then complains about men looking at her, is she completely innocent? Pastors are afraid to bring this subject up because someone will call us “insensitive”. Again, the influence of culture on our thinking.

Anyone who thinks my comments are “blaming the victim” are grossly misreading and misunderstanding my comments. I am fully aware of what rape is and the laws about consent. I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of our wider culture on this issue. This comment thread is as good as any to do that.

Wally, nobody’s saying you intended to blame the victim, but that is certainly the implication of bringing up the topic of modesty in this discussion. Like it or not, most lectures about modesty are aimed at young women like the victim here, not at middle aged men like the perpetrator. It’s a natural inference. And again, you’ve utterly failed to make any connection between the sin of “uncovering nakedness” (modesty in the 1 Tim. 2:9 really refers to the opulence of attire, not the coverage) and the sin/crime of rape.

Let’s keep our thinking caps on here, brother.

Pray for me as I send a note to a family that is dealing with either the seduction or rape of a family member. The “evidence is cold”, but still within statute of limitations if there’s a crime as far as I can tell. Goal is to encourage them to report if it’s reportable, and simply to comfort/encourage them if not. I was chatting last weekend at a potluck when a relative of the victim just started talking with me about it.

Brothers, let’s just say that if you’re halfway approachable, you’re going to be surprised how much you hear. Best estimate is 15-25% of young people are violated somehow. Maybe it’s somewhat less in your church or area, or it might be average or worse than average. But if you’re reaching people for Christ, you will probably hear it at some point.

It’s been my experience that this kind of sin/crime is a lot more prevalent than I ever thought it was when I was in undergrad studying for ministry. Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s getting better any time soon, either.