Book Review - Deep and Wide by Andy Stanley (part 1)

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A couple of pastor friends of mine encouraged me to read Deep and Wide by Andy Stanley when I had no intentions of every buying it or reading it. The tagline of the title is: “Creating Churches Unchurched People Love to Attend.” So, automatically, I was already skeptical because I don’t want to create a church that anyone would love to just “attend.” I’ve been beating the missional drum with our church about being the church rather than merely attending the church. So, my first impression by just reading the cover was “Creating Churches that Attract Customers, Not Disciples.” But in spite of my skepticism, I took their advice and got the book.

It’s easy reading since Andy Stanley is a very conversational communicator. He writes like he’s having a conversation with you. He preaches that way too. It certainly has appeal and makes for easy reading. The book is broken up into five sections, the first one being a personal account of his life as the son of Charles Stanley. He also for the first time, opens up with candor and honesty about the rift in his relationship over his dad’s divorce in the 90’s. All of this information is setting up the background for the launch of North Point Church which has become THE church that the un-churched love to attend.

The Second section deals more with how North Point was formed as a church plant. Section three deals with some of the foundational principles of making disciples that he calls “going deep.” Section four is the part that gets fun … Stanley deals with methodology that they use and why. Section five is a challenge to churches to become “deep and wide.”

Note: I read this book on Kindle, so my page numbers will be Kindle location numbers.

So, here we go…
In the introduction, Andy says:

Every church should be a church that the irreligious people would love to attend because the church is the local expression of the presence of Jesus. We are His body and since people who were nothing like Jesus like Jesus, people who are nothing like Jesus should like us as well. There should be something about us that causes them to gather at the periphery and stare. (Loc. 57)

Well, this is true in a superficial way. They “liked” Jesus but most did not love Him nor worship Him. If our goal is to be liked by those who are unlike Jesus, we’re already off mission. If there is something different about us that causes them to observe us, that’s quite another thing. Whether they like us or not will be partly by our graciousness and all because of the Spirit’s work in their life.

Consumerism

We grade ourselves on how attractive we are to our target audience…we are unapologetically attractional. In our search for common ground with unchurched people, we’ve discovered that, like us, they are consumers. So we leverage their consumer instincts. By the way, if your church has heating and air conditioning, you do too…it’s hard to overlook that Jesus attracted large crowds everywhere he went. He was constantly playing to the consumer instincts of His crowds. (Loc. 88, 102)

From the beginning, I already have major disagreements. We are not being attractional because we have heat and air conditioning. Nobody comes to our church because we have the best heater in town. This is a lame tactic of deflecting anticipated criticism. To say that Jesus played on their consumer instincts is outrageous. Jesus turned crowds away constantly when he called for discipleship as well. You cannot build a church on consumers. Listen to Alan Hirsch who flatly denies this mentality, in this helpful video clip.

Not called to pastoral ministry

In Chapter 1, Andy talks about his struggle with a call to ministry and how he never felt God call him to preach while many of his other friends were.

One afternoon as my dad and I were driving somewhere, I asked him, “Dad, does a person have to be called into ministry or can he just volunteer?’ He thought for a minute. ‘I guess it’s ok to just volunteer.’” (Loc. 213)

This was very revealing about Charles Stanley as well. Dr. Lloyd-Jones and Spurgeon would not have given that answer if they were his father. Lloyd-Jones said:

It was Mr. Spurgeon, I believe, who used to say to young men – “If you can do anything else do it. If you can stay out of the ministry, stay out of the ministry.” I would certainly say that without any hesitation whatsoever. I would say that the only man who is called to preach is the man who cannot do anything else, in the sense that he is not satisfied with anything else. This call to preach is so put upon him, and such pressure comes to bear upon him that he says, “I can do nothing else, I must preach. (Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Preachers and Preaching [Zondervan, 1971], p. 105)

So, what we have is a self-styled, self-commissioned preacher whom God did not call into pastoral ministry. On Andy Stanley’s leadership podcast on October 8th this last year, he mentioned that when he was at Willow Creek back in the 90’s, he realized that he didn’t have any of the stuff of a traditional pastor: being a shepherd, counselor, patient, kind, etc… . but he knew after hearing Hybles talk about leadership that he was a leader! Well, that’s probably true. He is a good leader, but he is not a God-called pastor. So everything that he says in his book from this point on should be taken with this truth about him in consideration. There will be some practical things you can take away from him, but don’t get your ecclesiology from a business man. By the way, don’t pull out “Here am I, send me” from Isaiah 6:8. He was already called to be a prophet by chapter 6. All of God’s prophets and Apostles were hand picked by God and most of them were reluctant to answer the call, not eager go volunteer.

Family feud

Andy describes growing up at First Baptist of Atlanta as a church made for churched people. He was troubled by what he saw when a gay pride parade purposefully paraded by the front of the church which made all the FBC people angry. Down the street, however was a Methodist church that put up signs welcoming them into their church. He saw the grace of one church and the hypocrisy of his own.

He says:

Churches designed for saved people are full of hypocrites. You pretty much have to be a hypocrite to participate. Transparency and honesty are dangerous in a church created for church people … It’s hard to extend grace toward people who don’t seem to need it. And it’s hard to admit you need it when you aren’t sure you will receive it. (Loc. 764)

I do understand and sympathize with the hypocrisy that breeds in “church culture.” I grew up with a front row seat to watch hypocrisy, legalism and exclusiveness. However, church isn’t designed for saved people, the church IS saved people. The design for the church is in Scripture and God designed that the church be the people of God on mission to bring the gospel to the lost. Stanley’s whole idea of mission is for the church people to bring the lost into the church as the evangelism strategy.

As he continues, he gives many details about his father and mother’s divorce. Before the divorce, he states that his mom had not been attending church for years (Loc. 362). Biblically, Charles Stanley should not have been senior pastor during those years. The church should have stopped holding up his celebrity status at the expense of his marriage. Anyway, Andy confronted his dad and advised him to let the church decide his future, but Charles saw his son as an opportunist trying to steal his ministry. I think anyone with any discernment should recognize that Charles Stanley’s own sin was blinding him and his pride was the source of the breach in his relationship with his wife and son. Andy did the right thing and left the church. Eventually, their relationship healed slowly and Andy started a new church where he could do things differently to reach a different segment of the population than his father’s church was reaching.

Starting over

In Chapter 3, Andy does a good job of describing what the church actually is and shows us that he has done some homework in church history.

The ekklesia was simply a gathering or an assembly of people called out for a specific purpose. Ekklesia never referred to a specific place, only a specific people…when Jesus used the term, his disciples understood him to say “I am going to build my own assembly of people and the foundation for this new assembly will be ME!” (Loc. 599)

He goes on to explain the rise of the Catholic church and how the ekklesia (Assembly of God’s people) became the kirche (Church House). “A kirche is a location. An ekklesia is a purposeful gathering of people. You can lock the doors of a kirche. Not so with the ekklesia of Jesus” (Loc. 627).

He goes on to explain how William Tyndale translated “church” rightly as “congregation” but the new word didn’t stick because people were still thinking of church as a location and not a people. I agree with everything in this chapter. At the end, he asks some great questions:

Are we moving or simply meeting? Are we making a measurable difference in our local communities or simply conducting services? Are we organized around a mission or are we organized around an antiquated ministry model inherited from a previous generation? Are we allocating resources as if Jesus is the hope of the world or are the squeaky wheels of church culture driving our budget decisions. are we the ekklesia or have we settled for kirche? (Loc. 698)

Although I agree with his observations about the church in chapter 3, he treats the ekklesia as if it is only a weekly meeting and that the majority of mission is done at that meeting.

Going Deep: crafting the North Point values

In Chapter 5, there are some more biblical references to being a church that is good at giving grace and truth and not one without the other. Of course, I don’t think you can give real grace without truth, but it is possible to give people truth without grace. He goes on to explain how the Jews and Gentiles had to learn to get along in the early church and the conclusion of the Jerusalem council was:

Acts 15:19, 28-29 NIV “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God…It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.”

Therefore, churches shouldn’t do anything that makes it unnecessarily difficult for people who are turning to God. (Loc. 981)

I agree that we need not make any traditions or extra-biblical preferences of ours an unnecessary barrier for people who are unbelievers. Sure, I believe in the sovereignty of God and that no amount of human barriers can keep the elect from coming to faith, but they may prevent them from coming to faith at your church!

According to Andy Stanley, the following five catalysts accomplish the purpose of developing people’s faith in Christ rather than merely increasing people’s knowledge. (Loc. 1124)

  • Practical Teaching - topical preaching with “here’s what to do next tacked on the end of every message” because “people are more concerned about what works than what’s true.” (Loc. 1210)
  • Private Disciplines - private devotional commitment to Christ. “The way you talk about the Bible on the weekend will determine their interest in the Bible during the week.” - (Loc. 1323)
  • Personal Ministry - Getting people involved in service. Take people where they are and use what they have to offer. They will appreciate being allowed to contribute. They will grow attached to that which they serve.
  • Providential Relationships - Can’t control who meets who, but you can facilitate environments that are conducive to the development of these types of relationships. Determine to create a model that is relationship-centric. (Loc. 1460)
  • Pivotal Circumstances - Big life events shape people’s thinking. Inform them how they should think before the events occur so their faith is strengthened by whatever happens. The interpretation of an event will determine which direction you will go.

All of these five points are great. I still think you can do expository preaching with practical application. Letting the Word set the agenda rather than your perception of what people need from week to week is the safer way to go. We still have to pick what books or chapters we’re going to preach, so there does need to be a sensitivity as to what God would lead you to preach, what is timely and what is needed.

Going Wide: why they love to attend

At the beginning of chapter 8-9, Andy recounts a terrible church visit as an example of what he assumes most of us are doing to repel people. Then he explains how to create “irresistible environments” which begins with the parking lot. “It’s up to us to shape the way people view our local churches. We can’t leave this to chance.” (Loc. 1754)

Leaders need to define excellence and hold that standard until it becomes the culture of the church. Some common sense stuff that we need to be aware of is asking yourself stuff like:

Is the Setting Appealing? Is it inviting and comfortable for people? An uncomfortable or distracting setting can derail ministry before it begins. Organized communicates that you take what you do seriously. Disorganized is unappealing. Safe environments, especially for kids, is important and appealing as well. We often need fresh eyes to come in and see what’s wrong that we have gotten used to seeing so much that we’re blind to it.

Is the Presentation Engaging? He appeals to Jesus’ parables which used lots of contemporary illustrations and familiar terms. He also talks about how many of our Sunday School Teachers, or small group leaders are great at presenting stuff, but are sometimes not that great at preparing the content. He suggests matching people who are gifted in these areas together so that if you have someone who’s better at leading the group, but not as great at studying, then give the group leader some material to present from a guy who enjoys studying and writing lessons. “You need a system that allows engaging presenters to present, skilled content creators to create content, and relationally savvy group leaders to facilitate groups” (Loc. 1999).

Is the Content Helpful? “We assume it’s true, but is it helpful?” (Loc. 2055) I have to interject. NEVER ASSUME TRUTH! Look, nobody is going to hand someone a Greek Lexicon for a Bible class. That wouldn’t be helpful, but never assume that the lesson materials are true. The truthfulness of something should never be assumed or taken for granted. That’s how heresy creeps in.

His point however is that application is what makes the difference.

Knowledge alone makes Christians haughty. Application makes us holy. If you want a church full of biblically educated believers, just teach what the Bible says. If you want to make a difference in your community…give people handles, next steps and specific applications. (Loc.2083)

Content that doesn’t address a felt need is perceived as irrelevant. Notice I said perceived. It may be the most relevant information an audience has ever heard. But if an audience doesn’t understand how content interfaces with their lives, it’s just not all that interesting. (Loc.2128)

I have to agree about application. Sometimes the Holy Spirit applies the teaching in a way that you could not have imagined, but connecting the dots for people is important. At least for people who are not so bright like me!

~more to come in part 2~

Disclaimer

This book was provided by the publisher for review. The reviewer was under no obligation to offer a favorable review.

Discussion

[TylerR]

James - I cited Eph 2:10 as support that each saved person is saved for a specific purpose; “created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

God’s program is marching steadily forward, and each Christian has a specific and important part to play in this plan. I believe this is a tremendous truth. No Christian is insignificant or inferior to another. Each person has particular gifts, talents and abilities - none of which are the result of an accident!

You are asking me to prove I am called to the ministry. I may as well ask you how I know you’re actually saved. I simply know I’m called into the ministry. I am also certain you simply know you are saved. It is difficult to explain to another person and provide objective proof. I hope you see my Scriptural point from Eph 2:10.

No Tyler, I don’t. Eph 2:10 doesn’t offer any more proof of a call than Ps 2:3 does. If you rely on some subjective mood swing to believe in a call, so be it.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

I eschew Stanley’s feeling that he felt absolutely no particular calling to ministry.

But hasn’t that been the whole point of this discussion? Take Stanley out of it. If someone doesn’t testify to some subjective “calling” experience, but does at least have an evident interest and willingness to volunteer- what is it about that that is Scripturally deficient, assuming other recognize his giftedness as he serves in church settings? People have talked in this thread about “desiring the office.” What is it about Stanley’s anecdote that would lead you to believe he lacked a desire if he wanted to volunteer? If anything, I take his story to mean that he had no dramatic “road to Damascus” moment- and if you have been raised in Baptist churches in the South, you hear plenty of anecdotes of a subjective, dramatic “call to preach” that would explain why he might have felt deficient because he could truthfully relate no such story. I am not defending everything about the man and his ministry techniques, here- just that if you’re going to find fault, this seems a pretty weak point on which to do so. I know plenty of active pastors in Fundamental Baptist churches whose stories wouldn’t be much different than his- they expressed willingness and God opened doors.

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

James - What can I say? You have your mind made up. Ciao …

Greg:

This depends on how you define “call.” As I have said before, (1) I deny this is a cosmic, direct revelation from God, and (2) His will for any of our lives may not become clear until much later, after we’re already in ministry or another field. I also wholeheartedly agree with this quite from WilliamD:

I would say that the only man who is called to preach is the man who cannot do anything else, in the sense that he is not satisfied with anything else. This call to preach is so put upon him, and such pressure comes to bear upon him that he says, “I can do nothing else, I must preach.

I took Stanley’s position to be that he felt no real sense that preaching was something he should do. That is what I took issue with. So to your question:

What is it about Stanley’s anecdote that would lead you to believe he lacked a desire if he wanted to volunteer?

I reply - I didn’t re-read Stanley’s position and didn’t recall he stated he wanted to volunteer. It appears Stanley thought he should wait for a cosmic revelation. This is incorrect.

Honestly, Greg, you are a fearsome interrogator. I give up now and flee for the exits …

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

I speak to your in your own context, Tyler…

Where are your rebel friends now?

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

I’ve changed my view, first assuming that what I consider the “traditional” view of a subjective call was true, because everyone talked about it, and expected people to have it.

In my years of study I have found no such connection to the calling of pastors. (I do not equate the overt calls of prophets in the OT to the selection of pastors.) In fact, I feel as though the subjective view has allowed unqualified men to pursue ministry apart from actual qualification.

Do I believe that God puts men in leadership positions? Yes, and without question. I cite Ephesians 4:11-12 as my evidence:

“And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints…”

It appears that these men are specific, chosen men for specific roles, functions, and deductively, locations and local assemblies.

To me, the rest is a process of discipleship beyond the desire:

  1. We are to pass on the truth to faithful men (2 Tim 2:2), so we should be encouraging men to be such.
  2. ALL men should be discipled (limiting discussion to men here because I believe only men can be pastors) .
  3. Qualifications in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 are characteristics that are indications of maturity for ALL men, whether pursuing a leadership position or not. God simply requires this maturity before a man can serve as a pastor.
  4. The ability to handle the word of God is good for ALL to some degree or another (Heb 5:12 - 6:3), those ready to pastor much have demonstrated the ability to teach (i.e. mastery of content and ability to communicate that content). This would assume that that are already actively involved in learning and teaching.
  5. The teaching of a desire in 1 Tim 3:1 is actually seen as inadequate, requiring one to meet the qualifications. The desire is not listed as a qualification itself. It is not wrong to desire the position, but it certainly is not presented as a requirement.

My views of single versus multiple pastors has changed also over my years of reading and studying the Word. I don’t think it is wrong to have just one pastor. I just think it is not where we are to stay, because of 1 Tim 2:2. We are to be constantly training men towards leadership. Further, it appears that you will likely have several pastors with several different levels of capability and availability (1 Tim 5:17-17), some which are compensated, and some who are not. I think we harm our churches by holding to the single pastor requirement (and/or pastors must be paid requirement).

My two cents on “the call” with or without Andy Stanley. Thanks.

(By the way, what keeps me in ministry - the desire - is my understanding of my responsibility before God - Acts 20:28ff and 1 Pet 5:1-7. Giving up pastoring is like giving up parenting. You cannot.)

For the Shepherd and His sheep, Kevin Grateful husband of a Proverbs 31 wife, and the father of 15 blessings. http://captive-thinker.blogspot.com

[Greg Linscott]

Now, here we are today- a family of nine. There’s a lot of details I could share beyond that- both in leading up and what has happened since our latest three came into our lives. It’s been overall a glorious thing (though I’m not going to lie- having 7 kids isn’t always a picnic).

Surely you jest. We’ve had a continual party with our 15. And now the ongoing addition of grandchildren to add to the party (3 more on their way this year, with only 6 of our 15 married).

Picnic on!

For the Shepherd and His sheep, Kevin Grateful husband of a Proverbs 31 wife, and the father of 15 blessings. http://captive-thinker.blogspot.com

Your post sounds like the path to understanding my dh and I have traveled over the last few years. After nearly 30 years of ministry, we have seen some interesting fruit develop from different views of the office of pastor, and we’ve found that a subjective call that ignores qualifications results in a variety of harmful doctrinal aberrations.

Well, Subra, our “continual party” this morning consisted of waking up to the one year old in a crib of his own sick, with mom away for the weekend at the state ladies retreat. :)

It comes with the territory- and we had a lot in our territory this year. Jennifer counted here recently that we had gone over 7 weeks straight with at least one family member having some kind of seasonal symptom (runny nose, cold, flu, that kind of thing)… that’s an unbroken chain of days… We’re glad to do it, I’m just observing that it’s not always leisurely, as picnics are often conceived to be…

But I suppose you knew that already… :)

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

Susan wrote:

we’ve found that a subjective call that ignores qualifications results in a variety of harmful doctrinal aberrations

I agree, and I hope this is not the impression I was giving. In much the same manner of a discussion on God’s eternal decree, we will often not see God working in a particular situation until much later, in retrospect. My own life is replete with such examples, and I’m sure I’m not alone.

I believe God has arranged events to turn out precisely as He wants them to, in a manner we cannot understand (e.g Gen 50:20). God uses His children as He sees fit, and certainly does have a plan for them. The alternative is to suggest some sort of deism, where God is completely uninvolved in lives, or worse, is unaware of what will happen to us (open theism).

A man certainly is called to the ministry, but in probably most cases he is already involved in the local church anyway. He is already working and laboring for the Lord in some capacity. Words fail me when I attempt to explain how someone knows they should go into ministry. It is neither an arbitrary decision nor a cosmic revelation - “Tyler! Thou shalt go to Seminary!!!!!”

I suppose it can best be described as a burning conviction. We have all experienced sermons where the Holy Spirit really worked on our hearts, and it really “spoke to us.” (No, Greg, I’m not charasmatic. Please don’t ask …). I think “burning conviction” is the best explanation I have. I admit it is unsatisfactory, but there it is.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

I suppose it can best be described as a burning conviction. We have all experienced sermons where the Holy Spirit really worked on our hearts, and it really “spoke to us.” (No, Greg, I’m not charasmatic. Please don’t ask …). I think “burning conviction” is the best explanation I have. I admit it is unsatisfactory, but there it is.

I wouldn’t necessarily conclude that, T. I would say that it could be influence of some Keswick theology shaping your conclusions…

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/why-let-go-and-let-god-bad-idea/

http://www.dbts.edu/journals/2008/Naselli.pdf

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

I am afraid I must give up. I am certainly not Keswick, and have had to deal with this theology in ministry. You simply do not want to accept anything I have to say and impugn my theology at the same time. It is particularly insulting to be accused of holding to a theology I have spent time combating in ministry. The fact that you felt compelled to include helpful links for my edification only makes it worse.

Continue to pontificate and interrogate from the cheap seats if you wish. I am simply trying my best to articulate something that is very hard to articulate.

Your remarks are beneath you, Greg. I’m done with this conversation.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Tyler,

Slow down a little, just a conversation going on here. Personally, I thought Keswick when I read your post about burning convictions and having the Lord speak to you as well. Consider it might just be misunderstanding on our part or even poor communication on your part.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

Why is raising a Keswick influence considered a low blow? Naselli, in one of the articles I linked to, includes someone like Charles Ryrie as one who has been influenced by that system of theology- I was taught Ryrie’s model of sanctification at FBBC. I am merely observing that the level of subjectivity that you are arguing for is typical of that system of thought. Anther proponent of similar reasoning who might stop short of Charismaticism would be Henry Blackaby (see http://www.9marks.org/books/book-review-experiencing-god-henry-blackaby). These are people who are not considered complete flakes. I’m sorry if you felt I was insulting you.

I’m sorry if this is offending you- I’m certainly not intending to. I understand it is hard to articulate. You seem to want to affirm both the need for a subjective call experience (though not a “cosmic” one) and the calling objectively confirmed through service and observation by others in a local church setting. I am not necessarily dismissing that some have testified to subjective experiences- but I am not insisting that such experiences are necessary to constitute a Divine calling.

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

Tyler, if you can’t demonstrate something from scripture, and you can’t articulate it without leading others to conclude something you “fought” against, maybe rethink your position?

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

I grow weary of parsing every word so as to avoid the appearance of holding to improper theology (what I consider improper). I knew my words would be interpreted badly, but I was just trying to explain something I can’t really explain. At least I gave it a shot. Apparently it didn’t clear up much.

I know I am called to ministry.

You seem to want to affirm both the need for a subjective call experience (though not a “cosmic” one) and the calling objectively confirmed through service and observation by others in a local church setting. I am not necessarily dismissing that some have testified to subjective experiences- but I am not insisting that such experiences are necessary to constitute a Divine calling.

This is a very good summary of my position. I have not personally spoken to anybody who has not articulated some kind of subjective experience. Some undoubtedly have not, however, especially in light of this little discussion thread! In that respect, the thread has broadened my horizons on this matter. I suppose this discussion is profitable, even though it enraged me for a minute or two!

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.