The True Gladness of Wine

The debate over whether Christians ought to consume alcohol is not only an old one but, on the Web at least, a tired one. Much of the tiredness, though, is due to an excess of passion and a shortage of precision. Quarreling has been abundant and arguing scarce. I hope to contribute a bit here to the argument rather than the quarrel.

One example of arguing rather than quarreling dates back to the spring of 2006. I gather that Bob Bixby posted a case against the use of alcoholic beverages by Christians.1 Bob Hayton responded, in part, with an essay entitled “Wine to Gladden the Heart of Man”: Thoughts on God’s Good Gift of Wine. In the essay, Bob Hayton argues not only that “God gave us wine to bring us joy,” but also that the joy He had in mind is an effect of wine’s alcohol specifically.

Speaking of Judges 9:13, Ecclesiastes 10:19, and Zechariah 10:7, Bob observes:

It should be clear that even the intoxicating nature of wine is being praised, here. Wine lifts the spirit and gladdens the heart long before it actually overtakes you and makes one drunk. Wine can be enjoyed and its effects relished without losing control and becoming drunken.

This theme runs through the eight points that form the main structure of the essay. Following the eight points, a section focuses on counterarguments related to the biblical warnings against wine and the use of weaker brother passages. Though Bob wrote the post some years ago, I became aware of it during a discussion here at SI last year and pledged to write a response sometime. Here it is.

A little perspective

Before I delve into the particulars, a bit of framing. First, I believe that the decision to use (non-medicinal) alcohol judiciously or to abstain from it completely is a matter of conscience. Believers must apply the Scriptures and be fully persuaded in their own minds (Rom. 14:5) and must not despise one another (Rom. 14:3, 10) for arriving at different conclusions.

That said, matters of conscience (or liberty) are not matters we should avoid discussing or examining carefully.2 We owe it to our Lord, ourselves, and one another to have a conscience that is as clearly and truthfully informed as possible.

So it’s in that spirit that I’m going to try to upend the argument in Bob’s essay. I have the highest regard for him and for many of those who share his views on this question.

The eight points

In support of the idea that wine is God’s gift and we should enjoy it (the effect of its alcohol in particular), the essay offers eight points with supporting Scriptures:

  1. Wine is a gift of the goodness of God (Jer. 31:12-4, Ps. 104:14-15, 1 Tim.4:1-5).
  2. Wine produces joy—it “gladdens the heart” (Judg. 9:13, Ecc. 10:19 NASB, Zech. 10:7. See also Prov. 31:6-7, Jer. 16:7-8).
  3. Wine is used in rejoicing before God (Deut. 14:22-26, Isa. 62:8-9, Deut. 12:17-19. See also use of wine in drink offerings: Ex. 29:40, Num. 15:5, 2 Chron. 31:5, Deut. 8:4).
  4. Abundance of wine is a particular blessing from God (Joel 2:24-26, 3:18; Gen. 27:28; Deut. 7:13).
  5. Having no wine was a hardship or a judgment of God (Amos 5:11, Deut. 29:2-6. See also Deut. 18:39, Mic. 6:15, Zeph. 1:13).
  6. The absence of wine results in the absence of joy (Isa. 24:7-11, Jer. 48:33, Is. 16:10).
  7. Drinking wine is singularly festive, joyful, and celebratory (Ecc. 9:7, Isa. 22:13, Job 1:13, Esther 1, 1 Chron. 12:39ff, Gen 27:25 and several others).
  8. Wine will be part of the future feasting in Christ’s kingdom (Isa. 25:6-9, Jer. 31:12-14, Matt. 26:29, Luke 22:28-30, Matt. 8:11, Luke 13:29, etc.).

Points of agreement and contention

The crux of this particular debate is really not the eight points themselves but whether they truly support the thesis. Isolated from a particular conclusion, seven of the eight points are solid and well supported by Scripture. (Point six should probably be merged with point five since the passages listed there do not indicate a cause-effect relationship.)

But the argument as a whole hinges on a particular definition of “wine” and a particular view of wine’s relationship to one of its usual ingredients (alcohol). Since the pro-wine position needs to argue that fruit of the vine without alcohol is not a suitable modern-day substitute, it must attribute the blessings of wine to alcohol specifically. The thesis, then, is effectively that alcohol is a blessing God gave us to make us glad. Most advocates of the judicious use of wine maintain that if there is no alcohol, the beverage simply isn’t wine.

This is my main point of contention: Where passages do not clearly indicate the effects of intoxication (whether slight or severe), “wine” cannot be used validly as a synonym for “alcohol.”

The old non-alcoholic wine argument

At this point, I’m sure some have got me pigeon-holed as a proponent of the old “Christian people drank non-alcoholic wine” argument. But this is not where I’m going. I believe God’s people consumed wine with alcohol on a regular basis.

But does it follow that if wine usually contained alcohol, every statement in Scripture extolling wine is also extolling alcohol? A closer look at some of the passages Bob uses in his essay suggests an answer.

But the vine said to them, “Should I cease my new wine,
Which cheers both God and men,
And go to sway over trees?” (NKJV, Judg. 9:13)

Here, the “wine” cheers both God and men. Presumably, it cheers them both in a similar way—but how would God experience the cheer that comes from the early stages of intoxication? Since God is a spirit, the cheer in this passage is evidently not directly related to any ingredient the wine contains—and doesn’t even depend on drinking it. (Arguably, we could take this as a reference to God incarnate physically enjoying wine, but it seems less strained to see the cheer here as referring to the gladness of witnessing an abundant harvest.)

Joy and gladness are taken
From the plentiful field
And from the land of Moab;
I have caused wine to fail from the winepresses;
No one will tread with joyous shouting—
Not joyous shouting! (Jer. 48:33)

Gladness is taken away,
And joy from the plentiful field;
In the vineyards there will be no singing,
Nor will there be shouting;
No treaders will tread out wine in the presses;
I have made their shouting cease. (Isa. 16:10)

Consider this: how much alcohol does the “wine” in these verses contain? Here the term refers to the product of the press at the time it comes from the press—a liquid containing no alcohol at all. This use of “wine” in reference to the not-yet-fermented fruit of the vine is not unique. In Jeremiah 40:10 and 12 “wine” is what is “gathered.” In Amos 9:13, “wine” is what the mountains are dripping with. In Haggai 2:16, “wine” is still in the vat, and in Isaiah 65:8 the substance is “wine” even while still in the cluster!

Though it’s true (as far as I can tell) that wine was nearly always consumed with alcohol in it, the evidence does not support using “wine” as a synonym for “alcohol,” nor may we treat alcohol as an essential attribute. We can’t assume that all references to “wine” say something meaningful about alcohol in particular.

The real gladness

If we accept that “wine” does not refer to alcohol specifically, or even consistently to a beverage containing alcohol, we’re free to look at the wine-and-gladness passages with more openness and to allow the context to carry more weight in understanding what each reference reveals.

What that look reveals is that most of the passages which associate wine with gladness are about the gladness of physical nourishment or refreshment, the gladness of abundant harvest or the gladness of God’s blessing in general (many of these passages associate cheer with food as well in the same context). Most of the passages that associate lack of wine with sorrow are really about famine and loss due to God’s judgment. Few of these passages are actually about wine. Nearly all refer to it in service to some larger point.

The table below classifies all of the primary texts from Bob’s essay, and most of the secondary ones as well. (Some passages could be classified under more than one heading.)

Passages associating wine with the gladness of abundant harvest or God’s blessing in general

Jeremiah 31:12-14, Deuteronomy 14:22-26, Zechariah 10:7, Judges 9:13, Isaiah 25:6-9, Isaiah 62:8-9

Passages associating wine with the gladness of nourishment or the pleasure of eating and drinking

Psalm 104:14-15, Ecclesiastes 10:19

Passages associating lack of wine with the sorrow of meager harvest or loss of God’s blessing in general (judgment)

Amos 5:11, Deuteronomy 29:2-6, Deuteronomy 28:39, Micah 6:15, Zephaniah 1:13, Isaiah 24:7-11, Jeremiah 48:33, Isaiah 16:10

Passages associating wine with gladness vaguely (specific reference to intoxicating property not clear, but possible)

Ecclesiastes 9:7, Isaiah 22:13, Song of Solomon 1:2-3, 4:10 (and others in Song of Solomon)

Passages not associating wine with gladness (mostly with other items representative of God’s provision and grace)

Exodus 29:40, Numbers 15:5, 2 Chronicles 31:5, Deuteronomy 12:17-19, Joel 2:24-26, Joel 3:18, Genesis 27:28, Deuteronomy 7:13, Matthew 26:29 (and Luke 22:17, 20), 1 Corinthians 11:21

Passages simply indicating that wine was consumed along with food, mostly on some special occasion

Job 1:13, Esther 1:7, 1 Chronicles 12:39-40, Genesis 27:25, Luke 7:33-34

Passages referring to medicinal use of wine

Proverbs 31:6-7

Passages that do not mention wine but would fit under one of the other headings if wine is assumed

1 Timothy 4:1-5, Luke 13:29, Luke 22:28-30, Matthew 8:11

Since the gladness and cheer in these passages do not depend specifically on the presence of alcohol, those who enjoy the fresh juice of the grape (or of the grapefruit, for that matter) cannot be accurately characterized as rejecting the blessing of “wine” or of missing out on the biblical gladness it brings.

Notes

1 Bixby’s post appears to be no longer available.

2 I also do not believe there is any reason that congregations may not agree together on some matters of conscience/liberty that they deem to have special importance and include these convictions as part of their membership standard.

Aaron Blumer Bio

Aaron Blumer, SharperIron’s second publisher, is a Michigan native and graduate of Bob Jones University (Greenville, SC) and Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). He and his family live in a small town in western Wisconsin, not far from where he pastored Grace Baptist Church for thirteen years. He is employed in customer service for UnitedHealth Group and teaches high school rhetoric (and sometimes logic and government) at Baldwin Christian School.

Discussion

guys, thanks for the fun dialogue. Aaron…good thoughts. i’m bowing out. i feel liking we’re on a little merry go round.

God bless,

mp

Arguing by analogy is always dicey. For it to work, you have to have enough similarity between analog and original that people can see the connection—but you also need enough dissimilarity between analog and original that people are freed up from assumptions/biases that are making the original unclear to them.

So analogies often fail on one end or the other. A third way they fail is by not being similar in a way, on balance, that is relevant to the question/point.

We’re afield a ways from the focus of the essay, but I’m interested in doing more writing on the topic eventually so… a bit of thinking out loud.

Several analogies appear in the thread in order to make certain points. A couple that stand out:
  • Alcohol is like sex - both potentially addictive, damaging outside of proper boundaries. Ergo, they should both be used judiciously.
  • Alcohol is like salt - both are “toxic” in large quantities but not harmful in smaller quantities. Ergo, they should both be used in moderation.
The first analogy is indeed similar on those points. But the dissimilarities lead me to wonder if we can really find similarity that is relevant to the question.
  • Alcohol is unlike sex - the former is a substance, the latter an activity.
  • The former can result in chemical addiction while the latter cannot.
  • Sex has a designed-in role as a feature of the fundamental unit of society (the family) as well as a major uniting factor in the relationship (marriage) intended to picture the relationship of Christ with His church.
Whether these differences matter depends on what point you’re trying to make with the analogy. If the point is “both should be used/experienced carefully,” who disagrees with that? I know of no one who believes alcohol cannot be used well medicinally. So the question in this case is not really “Are sex and alcohol similar?” but “What constitutes wise use of each?” At that point, the analogy declines rapidly in usefulness because we have very specific boundaries for sex and the whole debate for alcohol is what the boundaries of its use ought to be in our times based on biblical principles.

In both analogies, a point of similarity some have emphasized is potential for harm. The best way to analyze similarity and dissimilarity on that point is to look at it in terms of risk-benefit ratio. So to really work the analogy, you have to think through things like the likelihood of addiction, the relative harm of addiction itself, etc. compared to the value/potential benefit of use. The two items in the analogy are quite dissimilar in risk-benefit ratio. (It’s very debatable whether “sex addiction” is even really an addiction at all, since you have loosen up the definition of “addiction” quite a bit compared to the def. usually used for substance addictions.)

What about the second analogy? Again, relevance to the question is a problem. Everyone agrees that alcohol has a proper use. The debate is over what that proper use is… and I don’t think the analogy helps answer that question, given the dissimilarities.
  • Salt (sodium) is actually an essential substance for healthy function of our bodies. http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Salt+deficiency] Read about sodium deficiency . Our bodies don’t need alcohol.
  • Consuming a toxic level of salt on any particular occasion doesn’t have a tempting degree of appeal to normal people; you can’t do it accidentally; and it isn’t any fun at all.
  • There is no litany of biblical warnings on the dangers of salt.
There may be some potential in the argument-by-analogy department, but I think there isn’t much in these two analogies.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Shaynus] I would take the imagery of wine as a whole as well. It’s not just about the alcohol, but the imagery works better when alcohol is present. The image is far deeper and fuller than the alcohol because it’s a dual symbol of wrath and joy: just like the death of Christ.
I might be willing to concede that, as a metaphor, wine works better with alcohol than without—because it is indeed associated with wrath in Scripture as well as with gladness.

But how well the wine of ancient times works as a metaphor for other things doesn’t really argue one way or the other for our consumption of it (using the modern definition of “wine” ) today.

Something to chew on…

Some have granted here that the biblical gladness of wine does not depend on its alcohol exclusively. So, does the wrath associated with wine depend exclusively on its alcohol?

This is worth pondering because it has implications.

Some factors relevant to answering: we’ve seen that gladness in the positive “wine & gladness” passages (as opposed to the ones where drunkenness is clearly the idea) can have a variety of specific causes—nourishment, refreshment, the joy of abundant harvest, the joy of seeing God’s blessing vividly displayed in that abundance, etc.

Do we have similar explanations for the bad behavior or “negative emotions” associated with “wine” in other passages?

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Sorry for kind of piling on here… will be a while before I get back to the thread so one more thing I want to dump. For thinking through what alcohol does compared to excesses of other substances—and what does or doesn’t make for good analogies, it’s worthwhile to read a bit about intoxication. Bunch of good starting point info here: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/intoxication


intoxication

[intok′sikā′shən]
Etymology: L, in, within; Gk, toxikon, poison
1 the state of being poisoned by a drug or other toxic substance.
2 the state of being inebriated as a result of an excessive consumption of alcohol.
3 a state of mental or emotional hyperexcitability, usually euphoric.

Mosby’s Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. © 2009, Elsevier.


intoxication [in-tok″sĭ-ka´shun]

1. stimulation, excitement, or impaired judgment caused by a chemical substance, or as if by one.
2. substance intoxication, especially that due to ingestion of alcohol (see discussion at alcoholism). Alcohol intoxication is defined legally according to a person’s blood alcohol level; the definition is 0.10 per cent or more in most states in the U.S. and 0.8 per cent or more in Canada.
3. poisoning.
alcohol idiosyncratic intoxication a term previously used for marked behavioral change, usually belligerence, produced by ingestion of small amounts of alcohol that would not cause intoxication in most persons. It is now felt that there is no evidence for a distinction between this condition and any other form of alcohol intoxication.
caffeine intoxication caffeinism (def. 2).
cannabis intoxication physiological and psychological symptoms following the smoking of marijuana or hashish, including euphoria, preoccupation with auditory and visual stimuli, and apathy. Intoxication occurs almost immediately after smoking and peaks within 30 minutes.
pathological intoxication alcohol idiosyncratic i.
substance intoxication a type of substance-induced disorder, consisting of reversible, substance-specific, maladaptive behavioral or psychological changes directly resulting from the physiologic effects on the central nervous system of recent ingestion of or exposure to a drug of abuse, medication, or toxin. Specific cases are named on the basis of etiology, e.g., alcohol intoxication.
water intoxication a condition resulting from undue retention of water with decrease in sodium concentration, marked by lethargy, nausea, vomiting, and mild mental aberrations; in severe cases there may be convulsions and coma.

Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health, Seventh Edition. © 2003 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.


intoxication

1. A pathologic state induced by an exogenous or,less commonly, endogenous toxic substance 2. Drunkenness, inebriation Toxicology Too much of a bad or, less commonly, a good thing. See Arsenic intoxication, Chromium intoxication, Iodine intoxication, Scombroid intoxication, Selenium intoxication, Toxicology, Vitamin A intoxication, Vitamin C intoxication, Vitamin D intoxication, Vitamin E intoxication, Vitamin K intoxication, Water intoxication, Zinc intoxication. McGraw-Hill Concise Dictionary of Modern Medicine. © 2002 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

[Aaron Blumer] does the wrath associated with wine depend exclusively on its alcohol?
i haven’t done an exhaustive study, i don’t think verses like psalm 75:8 make any sense without fermentation and alcohol.

Aaron,

You bring up several good points, but I haven’t seen you deal yet with the evidence I brought forth that the description “a merry heart” or “heart merry with wine” is often used as a synonym for wine. That tips the scale in my opinion on the whole topic of wine and joy. My syllogism may not be stated correctly or be the best example of logic - but something is going on when a merry heart is a description of someone who is drunk and also something which God commands us to do. I see that as the quality of wine can be taken too far - but it can also be enjoyed without losing control.

For the record, when I say “intoxicating effects”, I mean the quality that makes wine intoxicate people if drunk without limits. I’m not advocating a buzz state is fine to pursue. I don’t get close to that at all.

One more thing about substances. Tylenol is one, and so is oxycodone, and a host of other medications. God invented them, mind you. He designed our bodies such that caffeine would stimulate them and alcohol would relax them and medicate them. And he also foresaw all the other substances we would create. Within reason and limits, it is a good thing to have medications and take advantage of them. A glass of wine has health benefits and does relax the body. Something could possibly be said to giving wine to those of a “heavy heart” that they may drink and “remember their sorrows no more” (Prov. 31), but I won’t go there.

I’m probably going to bow out at this point, the baby and other things are taking my attention now. I think that you’ve raised some objections but they are not conclusive enough to counter my primary point. In addition to my primary point there are things that you yourself have granted, that Scripture does attest to the drinking of alcoholic wine being a good or at least a neutral thing. You admit that they did drink alcoholic wine. That and other passages make alcoholic wine a liberty issue - it is permissible. There is no passage that forbids the drinking of alcoholic wine outright. And there would be many opportunities for such a text to be authored (but this is an argument from silence). Furthermore, the history of the church is replete with alcoholic wine being the standard up until the 1800s. And that is when the secular movement of temperance influenced the church and using modern science which for the first time was able to easily and widely limit fermentation - now churches started to use unfermented wine in communion and eventually America’s unique culture on this respect was born. To me, it is telling that Thomas Welch invented his grape juice out of a desire to create a prohibitionist version of communion wine. As a child I had always assumed that we were drinking unfermeneted grape juice all the way from John the Baptist’s days till now and it was only the modernists or Romanists who substituted it with alcoholic wine.

Anyway it is a complex issue and you are more than free to have many reasons for not partaking of wine to avoid addiction and harm to others and to keep a testimony. I respect that. I just think to do so is to endorse a culture that is using non-biblical methods to effect change in a culture. The culprit isn’t an inanimate object (in this case a drink or substance). The culprit is the heart.

Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7 I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.

[ChrisC]
[Aaron Blumer] does the wrath associated with wine depend exclusively on its alcohol?
i haven’t done an exhaustive study, i don’t think verses like psalm 75:8 make any sense without fermentation and alcohol.
The winepress is also associated with God’s blessing and God’s wrath. See “the pure blood of the grape” in Duet. 32:14 and “the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress” Rev. 14:20. Grapes freshly smooshed are obviously not fermented yet.

[Aaron Blumer]

But how well the wine of ancient times works as a metaphor for other things doesn’t really argue one way or the other for our consumption of it (using the modern definition of “wine” ) today.

Something to chew on…

Some have granted here that the biblical gladness of wine does not depend on its alcohol exclusively. So, does the wrath associated with wine depend exclusively on its alcohol?

This is worth pondering because it has implications.

Some factors relevant to answering: we’ve seen that gladness in the positive “wine & gladness” passages (as opposed to the ones where drunkenness is clearly the idea) can have a variety of specific causes—nourishment, refreshment, the joy of abundant harvest, the joy of seeing God’s blessing vividly displayed in that abundance, etc.

Do we have similar explanations for the bad behavior or “negative emotions” associated with “wine” in other passages?
Aaron,

Great questions all. I’ve studied ancient and modern winemaking, so I have a few helpful points. I heard or read somewhere (can’t remember the source) that the best of ancient wine is worse in quality to the lower quality wines that exist today. One factor there is that the wine we have today is better filtered. When you make wine, you crush it and dump everything in a vat. Today we help the fermentation process along by adding particular yeasts to the process. This helps have a consistent product. But ancient makers didn’t know about yeast. What was happening was that naturally occurring yeasts on the skin of the grapes would ferment the wine, and dregs are a by-product of the fermentation and aging process. I would say that ancient alcoholic wine probably had a lot more “floaty bits” in it, which is why the imagery of Christ drinking the cup of wrath “to the dregs” (an unpleasant experience) is almost certainly speaking of alcoholic wine. You don’t get dregs with freshly squeezed grape juice because of how the skins hold together. A common way to drink wine in ancient times would have been to pour it, let the dregs settle to the bottom, and sip until you got to the very end, much like a good french press coffee. Christ didn’t just sip the wrath of God, he downed it to the bitter last drop. So I would say, wrath imagery doesn’t exclusively depend on alcohol, it’s also about images of blood, the dregs as I mentioned. I think if it did depend on it, I would insist on drinking real wine at communion.

God uses things present in the physical creation to point to Himself. Those who shun wine and even alcohol categorically risk talking back to God about the wisdom of his creation. He knew alcohol would be a problem for us, yet he created it and our bodies as they are. Let’s say that someone argued that Christians, out of prudence, should never hike on mountains because of the physical danger it poses. I would say poppycock. God meant His creation to be enjoyed responsibly. If you think you might fall, take a rope or better yet, some friends. The point is many areas of the created world pose dangers, but we still leap in an enjoy them, and by enjoying them we can enjoy God.

I have a lot of different kinds of friends where I live here in DC. I have a group of radically non-Christian friends that I hang out with occasionally over the last 7-10 years. All are liberal. One works to implement “Health Care Reform.” Two are homosexuals. In other words, they’re very much not like me, but they love and care for me, and I them. But really as non-Christians go, these are great friends. I’ve spoken the gospel to each of these friends. We would often do a cookout or barbecue and the wine would flow. I would have a glass of wine and that would be it. My friends would ask if I wanted another one, and after a certain point I would say “No.” Why not? “I don’t want to get drunk.” I think living drinking that is a better picture to what God calls Christians to do than to totally reject any and all wine. I want to obey the charge in Luke 10:8 or 1 Cor 10:23ff to eat what is set before me, and accept hospitality with gladness. I’ve had the opportunity to say why a Christian shouldn’t get drunk to these friends, while accepting their hospitality. At a certain point, I leave whatever dinner or party because there’s not point anymore after everyone else is well on their way to getting drunk.

I would contrast that with drinking with Christian friends. I’ve never seen drinking get out of control with a group of Christians. Not once. Christians should be able to enjoy otherwise dangerous things because God created them.

I understand how Bob is using the word. “Intoxicating effects” is an OK word. But I’m uncomfortable with it (and have been since before Aaron’s post). There’s got to be a better way of saying it.

[Shaynus] I understand how Bob is using the word. “Intoxicating effects” is an OK word. But I’m uncomfortable with it (and have been since before Aaron’s post). There’s got to be a better way of saying it.
Just to maybe help clarify…. For those who haven’t ever drank, it is amazing how these effects play out. Just one swallow of wine will almost instantly warm you, flush your face and calm you down. So just a half glass is enough. It is that effect which makes the heart glad or merry.

Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7 I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.

Barry, that means 2/3 don’t. The one third that did were almost certainly intending to.

i was going to bow out, but had to respond to Aaron quickly on these points:


The first analogy is indeed similar on those points. But the dissimilarities lead me to wonder if we can really find similarity that is relevant to the question.

Alcohol is unlike sex - the former is a substance, the latter an activity.

The former can result in chemical addiction while the latter cannot.

Sex has a designed-in role as a feature of the fundamental unit of society (the family) as well as a major uniting factor in the relationship (marriage) intended to picture the relationship of Christ with His church.
on point 1 - alcoholic beverages are not inebriating without consumption, so to drink is to engage in an activity, an action step taken to achieve a desired effect. to be more specific, if alcohol is just a substance, then sex is just a concept. Until human action is taken in relation to either, nothing has occurred.

on point 2 - sex can become an addiction both as a psychological need and an endorphin driven chemical addiction. the fact of the matter is that addiction is addiction, chemical or not.

on point 3 - i think we can safely argue from Bob’s list that wine has been gratuitously applied to human life in general. and since we know that we are not married in heaven, that part of life is going to fade away. We also know we’ll be feasting on real food and drinking wine in heaven, so that part will continue. so, the principles around the the use of wine/alcoholic beverages are literally supracultural and timeless.

I don’t disagree that arguing from analogies can have limits. But i have to stand by the sex analogy as valid.

[Shaynus] Barry, that means 2/3 don’t. The one third that did were almost certainly intending to.
So what you’re saying is that everyone that gets drunk, planned to get drunk at the beginning of consumption?

Pretty much, or that they didn’t intend to not get drunk. That’s why drunkenness is a sin.