Preserving Some Truth

On Friday and Saturday (January 7-8), more than three hundred registered attendees (and about that many more walk-ins for the evening service) gathered for a “symposium on biblical separation.” I’m pleased to have had the opportunity to be among them.

Though the event could be improved in some substantial ways, it was an important step toward developing a biblical separation model that (a) improves on what separatists have practiced in the recent past and (b) functions better in the current evangelical landscape in America.

A significant plus is that this more theologically grounded and thoughtful approach to separatism stands a chance of winning the acceptance of theologically serious young people within fundamentalism (but on their way out) or outside fundamentalism but still listening to its better representatives.

Host pastor Mike Harding described the goal as a “theologically robust” and “biblically consistent” separatism as well as “cultural conservatism.”

What follows is a survey of conference highlights followed by some analysis.

Conference highlights

The event began with two workshop periods of about an hour each. Due to a snow storm I hadn’t anticipated, I missed the first hour and walked in just as the second was about to begin. Since I was late, I just headed straight for the nearest workshop.

It turned out to be one in which Dr. Bruce Compton provided an analysis of Wayne Grudem’s view of the NT gift of prophecy (a non-authoritative and potentially erroneous cousin of the OT gift). Grudem’s view has been foundational for much of current non-cessationist thought about the gifts of the Spirit. Compton’s analysis was interesting and helpful and highlighted some of the unresolved problems with Grudem’s view. The session concluded with brief consideration of whether non-cessationism is a separation issue. Compton’s view was that personal fellowship with non-cessationists was not a problem, but that continuationism’s threat to our belief in a closed canon is serious enough to preclude some other forms of fellowship. He explained that this included avoiding ministry cooperation and pulpit cooperation with non-cessationists.

An evening double-header

The evening service began at 7 PM. I was encouraged by the quantity of teens and young adults attending. This was not one of those “old guys bemoaning how things aren’t like they used to be” events. The gray hair ratio was probably well below 50%.

To me, things had a noticeable “Bob Jones” feel as well. Maybe it was the giant piano on the unusually high platform or the duet Mr. & Mrs. Scott Aniol sang in the characteristic BJU vocal style (thankfully, not with the full operatic-amplitude vibrato I recall hearing so often in my BJU days). Maybe it was the relative scarcity of women in pants (there were a few here and there, I think, though I didn’t exactly make a study of it). Men involved on the platform were in coats and ties but I saw few elsewhere.

The BJU déjà vu passed when we sang two songs I’d never heard before by Chris Anderson and Greg Habegger (words projected on the big screen and sheet music in the conference binder). These were traditional hymn-structured songs but still clearly (to me, anyway) not set to music of the 19th or 20th centuries. I’d characterize them as thoughtful, doctrinally meaty and not short on pathos and warmth. We’ll definitely sing these at our church.

Chris Anderson was the first of the evening’s two speakers. His message on “Gospel-Driven Separation” (from Jude) set an excellent tone for the meeting. The high insight-per-paragraph ratio will reward taking the time to hear the mp3. Some points:

  • Jude 3: Jude was a reluctant warrior. His delight was in the gospel and he wanted to write a letter focused on “our common salvation.” The situation required that he write about contending for the faith instead.
  • Our own contention for the faith must begin with a delight in the gospel. “If we don’t defend the gospel, we lose the gospel.” But we must make sure the fight has not become our delight.
  • Jude urges the defense of the faith on every believer. It is not a fundamentalist thing. It’s a Christian thing.
  • Contending does not begin with separation. This comes late in the process.
  • Jude is not about separation from disobedient brethren (taught elsewhere). Our dealings with brethren in error do not fall under the Jude umbrella.
  • If we allow the fight to distract us from the faith, we experience a slow death.
  • We must delight in the gospel, defend the gospel, and advance the gospel (v.20-22).

After a song or two, Dr. Mark Minnick took the pulpit and preached on the topic of what the gospel is. Again, the audio is well worth hearing. This was the first message I’d heard by Dr. Minnick in person since the late 1980’s. I was encouraged to see that his love for people, love for the gospel, love for the Scriptures and love for teaching are undiminished.

Day two

Saturday’s first session belonged to a newly-bearded Dr. Kevin Bauder who noted that he was lecturing, not preaching. The topic was officially to be “A Fundamentalism Worth Saving, Part 1,” but rather than rehash the points of his 2005 address by that title (given to the American Association of Christian Colleges and Seminaries), he focused on what else (beyond defending the gospel and practicing separation) a future fundamentalism should do.

The rest of the lecture articulated a vision for a relentlessly—and comprehensively—thoughtful fundamentalism, one that concerns itself with all of life, especially the questions weighing most heavily on the society in which we live. A key component, he said, was to recover the Christian doctrine of vocation and stop viewing God’s call to business, science, medicine, the arts, etc. as inferior to God’s call to do the things we usually think of as “ministry.”

I can’t begin to say how encouraging I found that lecture. Where can I sign up? It’s true that the vision is far from the reality, but everything important begins with a vision. If we can get the audio transcribed, the lecture may appear here at SharperIron in written form down the road.

panel.jpg

Later in the morning, Dr. Dave Doran provided a thoughtful exegesis and application of Romans 16:17. A twenty-something young man told me later that this was the most persuasive case for separation he’d ever heard and that he was now far more open to the whole idea.

The discussion session

The highlight of the event for many was probably the afternoon “discussion session.” All the platform and workshop speakers were invited to the platform to discuss a series of selected questions.

Though the audio will probably be available shortly, you’d really have to see video to fully appreciate this session. The body language was at least as interesting as the verbal responses (and several moments in the audio will make no sense at all without seeing the interaction).

Several thoughts stood out in my mind when the session ended.

  • These men possess serious and thoughtful convictions. The discussion format was making some of them squirm but their willingness to be involved speaks well of their courage as well as their desire to be persuasive.
  • The old separation-by-category (or maybe separation-by-acronym, as Chris Anderson observed in his Friday PM message) paradigm doesn’t work anymore. There are too many leaders and ministries promoting and defending the gospel these days that just do not fit into the boxes we used in the 70s and 80s (it’s debatable whether the boxes worked well back then either, but that’s another subject). There seemed to be general agreement on this point, though Doran was most emphatic and Minnick most hesitant.
  • We need more of this. When the hour ended, there was a silence I took to mean something like “What? We’re done already?” It’s difficult to impossible to alter the schedule of an event of this sort on the fly. But I wished we could have taken a break and resumed the discussion for another hour.
  • We separatists have work to do. As a thoughtful conversation about separation—with no fear of anyone labeling anyone else a “neo” or “pseudo” for differing on one point or another, the discussion was important and encouraging. But it also revealed that though we’ve awakened to the deficiencies in the separation paradigm of the past, we do not yet have another paradigm to adopt in its place. Many questions remained unasked and unanswered.

Next time?

I came away with the feeling that more work toward a “theologically robust” and “biblically consistent” doctrine and practice of separation is too urgent to wait for 2013 when the next PTC is tentatively planned. I also believe that what we need now is not so much a conference as a work group of some kind that produces a document or two—not another “resolution” by a fellowship or association, but a document aimed at answering the questions most are actually asking about separation, developed through a process that is sure to attend to those questions. Ideally, the document(s) would have the support of leaders from multiple associations and fellowships.

Mike Harding suggested that the next PTC may be devoted to “cultural conservatism.” Either way, I look forward to how this event develops in the future.

Aaron Blumer Bio

Aaron Blumer, SharperIron’s second publisher, is a Michigan native and graduate of Bob Jones University (Greenville, SC) and Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). He and his family live in a small town in western Wisconsin, not far from where he pastored Grace Baptist Church for thirteen years. He is employed in customer service for UnitedHealth Group and teaches high school rhetoric (and sometimes logic and government) at Baldwin Christian School.

Discussion

CPHurst: “I dont get the aversion here to this visible unity.”

Agreed. It seems that people have a hard time even admitting that the Scripture teaches us to prize unity. That seems like this makes for a sorry state in fundamentalism, if this is the case.

Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7 I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.

Bob: “Why do I need to be defending the fact that we should be unified with other churches and believers? And people wonder why so many leave fundamental circles? The NT has numerous unity commands, and it reinforces constantly the spiritual unity which just IS when it comes to believers. And acting like we don’t need each other or anyone else, how is this Scriptural? “

Agreed as well. We are unified in Christ, we are to be unified in doctrine & we are to live out that unity. Unity is both a reality of our very existence as believers in Christ and we are commanded to live it out. So why do we have to defend this? Why does it seem like it holds 2nd place to separation? Why does it seem to get swept under the carpet?

It seems to me that we are to look towards practicing unity first and practice separation as we go along. We are unified first because it is a fact of our very existence as believers. If we cannot live out that unity w/ others because of their skewed doctrinal beliefs concerning the essentials then we need to separate from them.

I would have thought it was another KJV-only article :)

Wow … A lot has been said. Let me quickly respond, and pardon my brevity.

To CPHurst
Larry, are you saying that the command to separate from faith deniers is itself part of the apostolic teaching?
Perhaps we are quibbling over semantics, but assuming that Paul is an apostle, and assuming that Paul wrote Romans 16:17-18, and assuming that Romans 16:17-18 does teach separation from faith deniers, do we not have to conclude that separation from faith deniers is part of the apostolic teaching?

Perhaps I am missing something in the question, but this seems self-evident. So please clarify for me if I have missed it here.

If you are asking if separation is part of the gospel, then no. It’s not. In response to your last paragraph, I don’t know anyone who has ever included in the core doctrines of the faith, but I may have simply missed it. But is it inseparable from the gospel? I think we have to say yes, because to affirm another means of salvation (i.e., to not confront a false gospel, to stand against it) is to actually deny the exclusivity of the gospel. So when we join in ecclesiastical partnership with someone who denies the gospel, we are affirming that they are an acceptable teacher, someone that we will stand alongside and help.
I still dont see how the context of 2 Thess. 3 refers to the whole of the apostolic teaching like in Jude 3 & Rom. 16:17. 1 & 2 Thess. are discussing the teachings surrounding the return of Christ/Day of the Lord. The context of 2 Thess. defines the teaching they are to separate over as “what we say in this letter” (vs. 14). This refers to the incarnation (2 Thess. 3) & the teaching of the return of Christ (2 Thess.).
Let me ask it this way and see if this helps bring some clarity: On what basis do we exclude anything from 2 Thess 3? (I am not saying we should not exclude anything, but rather asking the basis for how we determine what is included.)

Let’s assume that incarnation and return of Christ are the only things taught, and therefore they are specifically what Paul means by “our instruction in this letter.” Can we then conclude that Paul means nothing else? Would Paul have a similar intent with the letter to the Ephesians or Colossians?

In other words, would Paul say, “Yes, I mean to separate from brothers who think the DOL has already come or who are lazy, but I don’t say that about people who think that we should observe holy days (Col 2) ”? In my mind, I have hard time seeing Paul limiting this command only to what 2 Thess says. It seems to me that the principle is broader if, in fact, all apostolic revelation is revelation from God. I think we have to treat it the same.

This is where I think we actually need a new paradigm for separation, or at least a new factor—that of clarity. We separate over things that are clear. That is why we separate over the idea that the Lord has already returned (preterism?; 2 Thess 2:1), but not over the timing of his future return. It is why we separate over the deity of Christ but not over church government. A friend of mine is actually very strong on this and I think he makes a good case. I have encouraged him to write the article and let’s publish it here at SI.
My point is that the people we would be separating from who would fall under the category of 2 Thess. 3:14 are few and far between such that I think we are making a mountain out of a mole hill (thought it is a command that we need to obey).
It may be few and far between, but I would argue that this is a secondary proposition. Even if they are few and far between we still need to know what it is saying. Perhaps it is “few and far between” because we are improperly applying it. If we are waiting until we find someone who has quit their job to wait for Jesus’ return and is mooching off fellow believers in the interim, we will probably never apply it. But I don’t see any reason to limit it to that.
Further, even if I did see 2 Thess. 3:14-15 referring to the whole of apostolic teaching and that the command to do so was itself a part of that teaching I dont think I would have to exercise it very often such that so much discussion is warranted.
The infrequency may mean it needs more discussion because it is so frequently not practiced. I don’t know, just throwing that out there.
Again, some present day examples would be helpful that would fall under your understanding of these passages both of separating from faith deniers and those who associate with faith deniers. Historically, would Billy Graham fit your understanding of exercising 2 Thess. 3:14-15?
Sure, Graham would. He indisputably failed to obey Romans 16:17-18, and therefore he did not obey apostolic instruction. I actually think there is legitimate concern that at times, Graham actually taught a false gospel, such as when he appeared to deny the necessity of faith in Christ for salvation.
Also, show me how the context of Jude 3, Rom. 16:17, etc. include in the apostolic teaching the separation command. If it does then we have to redefine what we mean by core doctrines of the faith and I dont know when separation (as important as it is) was ever a part of that.
As I started with, I think you are exchanging “apostolic teaching” with “core doctrines of the faith.” We must not do that. The apostles taught quite a bit that was not a “core doctrine of the faith.” But if Jude and Romans were written by apostles, and if they teach separation, then we have to conclude that separation is part of the apostolic teaching.

Again, I fear I am missing something in your argument because this seems so obvious. So please forgive me. Perhaps I need more clarification about the question.

[CPHurst] I dont get the aversion here to this visible unity.
I am not sure there is an aversion to it. I am not convinced, at least for me, that we have even defined it yet. What is unity? What does it mean to be unified? And if Wayne Grudem and I have unity, what do we have and how is it visible?
Further, the end of vs. 21 states the purpose/result of the unity believers share in Christ w/ the Father, “so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” If the world is to believe this then they have to see it - it is visible.
And this is exactly the point I was making earlier. There is no way to see anything between Grudem and I. So how does my “unity” with him qualify for what Jesus is talking about John 17? Do I need to fly to wherever Grudem is in order to fulfill John 17? Obviously not, and I think you agree. So how can this unity be seen?
If a local church is to live out its unity visibly to itself and to the world then why is the universal church to do no less as far as it can being that it is scattered all over the world?
Precisely because they are scattered all over the world. How could they have visible unity? I am really struggling to understand what that means.

Why do I need to be defending the fact that we should be unified with other churches and believers?
As I said to Craig, before we defend it, I think we first need to define it. When you say we should be unified with other churches and believers, what do you mean? Do you and I have unity? I don’t even know where you live (I haven’t looked at your profile, so it may be on there.) What is unity if you and I have it? What is unity if Wayne Grudem and I have it? What is unity if Wayne Grudem and I get it because he comes to preach for me one time? If we are to have unity, what should it look like and how will the world see it?
The NT has numerous unity commands, and it reinforces constantly the spiritual unity which just IS when it comes to believers. And acting like we don’t need each other or anyone else, how is this Scriptural?
But where are those commands applied as they are being applied here? I don’t see that in the Scripture.
[From another of Bob’s posts] Agreed. It seems that people have a hard time even admitting that the Scripture teaches us to prize unity. That seems like this makes for a sorry state in fundamentalism, if this is the case.
Does Scripture really teach us to prize interchurch unity? Or interstate unity? Or international unity? I am willing to be convinced, but I am going to need to see an argument from Scripture.

John 17 is, so far as I know, the closest and there is a number of questions that need to be answered about that.
When it comes to separation, Paul seems to only do it with tears in his eyes.
I totally agree, and this was part of Chris’s point on Friday night.
Often it isn’t that someone doesn’t follow 2 Thess. 3 and so we need to apply 2 Thess. 3 to them. Instead it is that they are applying 2 Thess. 3, but they are judging the “disobedience factor” if you will, of someone to be at a different level than we’d like.
I actually addressed this at my blog last week. And this is why I think separation is over things that are clear. We are not separating over unclear things.

Thanks Bob. Enjoying the interaction.

In other words, would Paul say, “Yes, I mean to separate from brothers who think the DOL has already come or who are lazy, but I don’t say that about people who think that we should observe holy days (Col 2) ”? In my mind, I have hard time seeing Paul limiting this command only to what 2 Thess says. It seems to me that the principle is broader if, in fact, all apostolic revelation is revelation from God. I think we have to treat it the same.
Larry,

This seems to be definitely wrong. People saying we should observe holy days, are expressly addressed in Rom. 14 and 15, and there we are not told to separate from them. So Paul says their position is wrong. Elsewhere he teaches a contrary position, but he asks for unity when handling relationships with those people.

So actually this example you bring up defeats your point, I think.

As for where unity is taught, it is taught in the places that emphasize a universal church and a fellowship that believers have one with another. Rom. 15:5-7 and Eph. 4:3, 13 are verses I’ve already quoted above too. We’re also told to be at peace with all men, and to bear one another’s burdens. We’re to share with others and provoke to love and good works. And this is across any strict local church lines, in my view, as the church was defined as being as wide as the geographical location, even though we know geographies like Corinth and Rome also had house churches (which by definition are not as all encompassing as the entire geography they are situated in).

Striving for the unity of the faith, for the glory of God ~ Eph. 4:3, 13; Rom. 15:5-7 I blog at Fundamentally Reformed. Follow me on Twitter.

Larry, I agree with separating from faith deniers and in Graham’s middle to later part of his ministry I would have separated from him both for stances he made and people he consistently joined with because I would have taken it as he agreed with them enough to having that much contact with them. To have a catholic as part of your evangelistic meeting team is to deny orthodox view of the Gospel so I would separate from him. Unfortunately I think this is an easy example though I am the one who brought it up. Come up with one that would hit home for most people with an area pastor.

Maybe I am confusing core doctrines with apostolic teaching but I thought we got the idea of core doctrines from the idea of apostolic teaching?

No, the command to separate from faith deniers is not a core doctrine of the faith because it is not part of the Gospel itself. It is a means to preserving ourselves and the teaching of the Gospel.

Like I said, even if 2 Thess. 3 was referring to core doctrines or even more broadly all apostolic teaching I think it would be a rare occasion when I would have to exercise it - thus, making the mountain out of the mole hill. I just dont know when any of may pastor friends would be allowing faith deniers to do ministry in and for their church. I would suspect that they had other underlying issues that would drive them to do this and thus there might be a primary reason with them that I needed to separate over.

Question: Here is a question for 2 Thess. 3:14. Is the disobedience that Paul is referring to (1) the disobedience of not working and thus being idle in waiting for Christ’s return or (2) is it referring to being disobedient towards everything Paul wrote to the Thessalonians? If the first then this passage does not warrant person A from separating from person B because they will not separate from person C who is being disobedient. If it is the 2nd then we might be on our way to some kind of 2nd degree separation where person A would have to separate from person B because they will not separate from person C who is some kind of faith denier. Again, presently I dont know when I would have to apply this. Not to say that some would not have to do this but again, I think they are very few and far between.

If core doctrines are not synonymous with apostolic teaching then where are we told in the NT what the core doctrines are? Wouldnt Paul use similar language to describe them? Larry, if you think you are confused then I am right there with ya’:)

Ok, forget Grudem since he is a hang up for everyone (though I cant understand why) just because you are not local to him.

This seems to be definitely wrong. People saying we should observe holy days, are expressly addressed in Rom. 14 and 15, and there we are not told to separate from them. So Paul says their position is wrong. Elsewhere he teaches a contrary position, but he asks for unity when handling relationships with those people.
Colossians 2 seems to be a different sort of teaching than Romans 14, doesn’t it? I think the question in Colossians 2 is whether they are brothers or apostates. I don’t think they are Romans 14 kind of people. Read it and see what you think. I see some significant differences.
As for where unity is taught, it is taught in the places that emphasize a universal church and a fellowship that believers have one with another.
And where is that? I don’t want to be pedantic, but I think it would be helpful to get the verse on the table so we can see them.
Rom. 15:5-7 and Eph. 4:3, 13
I am reading right that people want to limit the context of 2 Thess 3 but want to expand the context of these types of verses.
We’re also told to be at peace with all men, and to bear one another’s burdens. We’re to share with others and provoke to love and good works. And this is across any strict local church lines, in my view, as the church was defined as being as wide as the geographical location, even though we know geographies like Corinth and Rome also had house churches (which by definition are not as all encompassing as the entire geography they are situated in).
Not sure this supports the argument. I will think about, but it I think you are taking some things that are dependent on being the same place and trying to apply to people that aren’t in the same place. The whole “local church” thing is a big one. Even if we grant that it is as big as a city, it is still smaller than the universal idea right? And at least in a city, we can do stuff together.

Again, go back to the example of me and you. I really can’t do any of these things with you in any meaningful way. I think the internet has made us, in some ways, redefine what fellowship and ministry participation is.

I need to quit here for the day, so I will respond to Craig quickly and then try to exercise some self-control.

Come up with one that would hit home for most people with an area pastor.
I agree that Graham was easy. If you keep asking easy questions, we will get somewhere …

I don’t have a good example right off the bat because I do not see the need to run out and seek partnership with a lot of churches. If our paths cross, we evaluate things and see if we can work together in some way. If our paths don’t cross, I don’t even think about it.

So if you say, “Who are you secondarily separated from?” my answer, “I don’t know.” I don’t even think about it because it’s not really in my ministry right now. Perhaps in a different place it would be.
Maybe I am confusing core doctrines with apostolic teaching but I thought we got the idea of core doctrines from the idea of apostolic teaching?
I think core doctrines (whatever they are) is a part of apostolic teaching, but not the sum total of it.
No, the command to separate from faith deniers is not a core doctrine of the faith because it is not part of the Gospel itself.
So is the inspiration of the Bible a core doctrine of the faith? I think it is, but it isn’t part of the gospel itself. Or what about the unchangableness of God? I think that is pretty core, but it isn’t part of the gospel. I would break fellowship with an open theist or process theologian even if they affirm the gospel itself. This is why I think “the gospel” is perhaps a bit narrow for many things.

Question: Here is a question for 2 Thess. 3:14. Is the disobedience that Paul is referring to (1) the disobedience of not working and thus being idle in waiting for Christ’s return or (2) is it referring to being disobedient towards everything Paul wrote to the Thessalonians?
I think it is the second since “our instruction in this letter” is more than simply separating from the lazy man.
If core doctrines are not synonymous with apostolic teaching then where are we told in the NT what the core doctrines are?
I think this is a good point, and it is why I am questioning how useful the idea of “core doctrines” are. Doran talks about things that tear at the fabric of the faith. I have typically talked about load-bearing doctrines, the doctrines without which Christianity falls to the ground. I think we can come close to some sort of agreement about what Christianity needs to be Christianity, but it is certainly broader than the gospel proper, I think.

But 2 Thess 3 shows separation over something that aren’t a core doctrine. The question is whether there is anything besides laziness that fits into that category.
Ok, forget Grudem since he is a hang up for everyone (though I cant understand why) just because you are not local to him.
That’s why I want to broaden the discussion out to whoever – you and me, me and Bob, you and Bob, whatever. Proximity matters in terms of unity. More matters, but at least proximity does. And I think, at this point, it is misguided to assume that we have unity with everyone that we aren’t separated from for cause. I don’t think that is the case, at least if “unity” is something that the world is supposed to see and believe in Jesus.

So that’s why I say, What is unity? Because if you and I have unity, I don’t know how that will cause anyone to believe that Jesus is sent from God.

I will look forward to your response, but do my best not to respond today.

I’m just a bit confused about those who are asking how unity can be applied to Grudem and myself since we have no meaningful interaction and yet can speak of separating from Graham even though they have no meaningful interaction with him.

I guess I would assume Christian unity would be the default position rather than separation.

Enjoying the discussion so far!

Forrest Berry

In some respects, unless we have some kind of link with another ministry or person, we can’t really be united or separated from them.

But where a ministry directly impacts my own, I can make those kinds of choices.

Most of us have little or no direct connection or possibility of joint ministry with Grudem (the example used) so for most of us, other than deciding whether to use or recommend his books or not, there is little meaningful relationship to talk about.

The same is basically true about someone like Graham, except that his ministry is very wide-ranging. His team has sponsored evangelistic campaigns in my town (not him personally, but his team) and we regularly get invitations from his organization to participate in some event locally that is sponsored by his ministries.

Does that make it a little clearer?

Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3

I think Bob has put nature of the church-to-church relationship problem succinctly and helpfully in the first few paragraphs http://sharperiron.org/comment/24222#comment-24222] in this post .

That seems like a great place to launch a conversation w/a panel of guys like those who were at PTC (but with some additional leaders from GARBC, FBF, ACCC, etc.)
[CPHurst] I dont get the aversion here to this visible unity. Is it there or not? If so then we need to display it ourselves. Why dont we need to worry about what actions we need to do in order to show our invisible unity visibly?…

Quote - “ ‘I’m inclined to think that where unity is real, it cannot help but “show.” But it is not necessarily going to show in recognized ways.” If it dosent show in recognized ways then how are you defining “show” in the first sentence? The second sentence seems to cancel out the first all together. It seems like you are saying, “I know we are unified in Christ and we are to show it some way but its not all that important and dosent need to be physically manifested.” Wouldnt something that shows be recognizable as such?
It’s not an aversion to visible unity. It’s just that efforts at visible unity are so often mistaken for actual unity and folks tend to assume that the absence of these programmed events = lack of unity.

I’m not really making a case here so much as explaining myself… To me it’s a bit like being alive. You don’t have to plan ways to show that you are alive. If you’re alive, you breathe, you eat, you interact with your environment, etc. You don’t have to wonder “How can I make the fact that I’m alive visible?” And the evidence of your life is there, though some may not see it. If you’re sleeping or in a coma, someone who isn’t looking closely might think you’re dead.

So the reality of visible evidence and the perception are two different things.

(Like all analogies, this one is imperfect… but maybe its true that if the evidence of life is hard to see, sickness is implied… and so if evidence of unity is hard to see, some unhealthiness in the unity is implied. Not sure.)

So my point about unity is that it exists and it shows, automatically. We do not really have to contrive ways to show it unless the ways it naturally shows are deficient in some way. Are they deficient? I’m not sure. It’s true that thousands of churches worshiping the same God, believing the same gospel, embracing 90% of the same understanding of apostolic teaching but operating mostly separately do not look unified to many observers. But they look unified to those who know what to look for. Do we need to contrive ways to look unified for those who don’t know what to look for?

(I tend to think that cooperation should be driven by practical factors, not a desire to show unity—that is, work together when it is more effective at accomplishing ministry goals/”mission” than working separately)

And, as Bob asked where I linked above, is that kind of unity (essential unity) enough or is it supposed to extend to cooperation in multiple endeavors?

So it may be helpful—at least in understanding where I’m coming from—to distinguish between unity and cooperation. To me, cooperation is another form of unity (but unity is not its purpose) in addition to the unity we have in the faith. It’s multichurch teamwork. But it’s not clear to me that an obligation to be involved in this teamwork is taught in John 17. (Other places, like Acts would be stronger… but again unity—or its demonstration—is not the point there)

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

Great discussion. I’m just reading it today, having been busy with other pressing matters this week.

I have only one thought at this point. It has long bothered me when I hear fundamentalists say that the unity for which Christ prayed in John 17 was a spiritual unity effected by God, and therefore has no practical applications for Christians today, or something similar. It sounds to me like, “We can ignore the unity for which Christ prayed, and get back to our first and second degree separation unhindered without wrestling with the troubling implications of Christ’s prayer.”

What other area of God’s will, revealed in Scripture, are we free to ignore? Doesn’t Scripture teach that if God reveals something as His will (or His work), our posture is not to leave it Him, since it’s His and not ours. Rather, we should make His will our will, and endeavor to cooperate with God in what He has revealed He is doing. Isn’t the highest level of honoring God our desire to make His will our will? Am am I missing something in this analysis?

Warm regards,

Greg Barkman

G. N. Barkman