A Tale of Two Colleges

NickImage

This week brings fascinating news from two colleges. The two institutions are facing almost opposite situations, and the contrast between them is both remarkable and illustrative. Because change occurs constantly, Christian organizations are constantly required to apply their principles to new situations. Cedarville University and Faith Baptist Bible College provide a clear contrast in terms of how new applications might take place.

The school that is now Cedarville University started out as a Bible institute in Cleveland. During the early 1950s it acquired the name and campus of Cedarville College, formerly a Presbyterian school. For many years, Cedarville College staked out its identity as a fundamentalist, Baptist institution. Under the leadership of James T. Jeremiah, it was one of the flagship schools identified with the Regular Baptist movement.

In 1978, Paul Dixon became president of the college. He brought with him a vision to make Cedarville into a world-class university. Regular Baptists, however, had neither the numerical nor the economic strength to fulfill his dream. Dixon needed a larger constituency and broader appeal, and in pursuit of these goals he began to downplay some of the distinctives that Regular Baptists thought important. There was a softening of ecclesiastical separation as the platform featured a broader variety of evangelicals. There was an increasing openness and even friendliness toward the more current trends in popular culture. There was even a shifting of the criteria for faculty selection. By the early 1990s, Cedarville professors were putting themselves publicly on record for their (belated) support of the Equal Rights Amendment—legislation that was almost universally opposed by conservative Christians of all sorts.

As Cedarville broadened its appeal, it experienced growing tensions with Regular Baptists. These tensions came to a head when, at the end of Dixon’s tenure, Cedarville formally identified with the Southern Baptist state convention in Ohio. Under the new president, William Brown, the university refused to endorse the Statement of Purpose of the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches, a requirement for partnering institutions. For both these reasons, the GARBC terminated its partnership with Cedarville in 2006.

The divorce was ugly, at least on the Cedarville side. Since the GARBC national conference was held in Michigan that year, Cedarville supporters were transported by busloads to try to overwhelm the vote. At one point some threatened to rush the platform if a particular parliamentary ruling did not go their way. In the end, however, the association had the votes to remove Cedarville from partnership.

Shortly thereafter, scandal erupted on campus as a couple of the most conservative tenured professors were terminated suddenly. Alarmed constituents formed watchdog groups and began to spread word of theological aberrations. Most Cedarville constituents found these charges difficult to believe, but the university continued to show signs of movement away from its fundamentalist roots. In an attempt to reassure conservatives, in 2011 the university adopted white papers dealing with creation, with justification, and with divine omniscience.

The situation, however, continued to deteriorate. In 2012, a professor was fired for teaching that the opening chapters of Genesis were non-historical. Then two philosophy professors published that they could not vote Republican since they supported universal health care, decreased defense spending, increased spending on social programs, and economic redistribution. Consequently, the question was no longer whether Cedarville should be considered a fundamentalist institution, but whether it should even be considered a conservative one.

In response, the board placed the philosophy major under review and indicated its intention to end the program. In October, President Brown tendered his resignation, followed by a key vice president in January 2013—many believed under pressure from the board. In response to concerns that Cedarville might be moving in a fundamentalist direction, board chairman Lorne Sharnberg was quoted as saying that Cedarville “isn’t moving anywhere. We’re staying right where we’ve always been.” Ironically, these are the very words that the Cedarville leadership used to say when it was moving away from fundamentalism.

While these events have been taking place at Cedarville, Faith Baptist Bible College has been facing a difficult decision of its own. The school long ago staked out a position that was traditionally dispensationalist, strongly Baptist, and conservative in its appropriation of contemporary popular culture. It has required its students to become members in churches that share these commitments.

Through the years, one of the congregations that allied itself with Faith was Saylorville Baptist Church. Dozens of students and several staff are members at Saylorville, and in many ways (for example, its commitment to evangelism) Saylorville models values that Faith shares. Over the years, however, Saylorville has adopted an increasingly contemporary ministry, and it has recently dropped the word Baptist from its name. As Saylorville has made these moves, Faith has felt considerable pressure to soften its commitment to its principles and to broaden its appeal.

Decades ago, one of the presidents of Faith Baptist Bible College (David Nettleton) argued that when Christians disagree, they must either limit their message or limit their fellowship. This past week, Faith’s board made the decision to stand by its message and allow its fellowship to shrink. Students and staff will no longer be permitted to join Saylorville Church.

This may represent the hardest decision that the administration and board at Faith has ever made. They are not angry with Saylorville. They love its pastor and its staff, and they believe that Saylorville is in some ways a good model. They are not denouncing the church, but they are separating from it at one level. They are making this move because, if they do not, their principles will be obscured. They are aware that the decision will be costly.

Cedarville and Faith represent opposite approaches to the application of principles in changing situations. Cedarville committed itself to wider influence and was willing to sacrifice principles in order to obtain it. Faith has committed itself to maintain its principles, and it is willing to accept narrower influence in order to uphold them. Both have responded to change, but they have responded in opposite directions.

Granted, sometimes Christians hold mistaken principles that they ought to revise. Simply to abandon principles in favor of increased influence, however, is a devil’s bargain. Once principles have been obscured, they become very difficult to clarify. Both Faith and Cedarville will face some unhappy constituents. Cedarville’s will be unhappy because their school’s position is not clear. Faith’s will be unhappy because their school’s is. The difference is this: no one is attracted to obscurity and uncertainty, but some may be attracted to a clearly stated position when it is consistently maintained.

Christ Jesus Lay in Death’s Strong Bands
Martin Luther (1483-1546), translated by Richard Massie (1800-1887)

Christ Jesus lay in death’s strong bands,
For our offenses given;
But now at God’s right hand he stands
And brings us life from heaven;
Therefore let us joyful be
And sing to God right thankfully
Loud songs of hallelujah. Hallelujah!

It was a strange and dreadful strife
When life and death contended;
The victory remained with life,
The reign of death was ended;
Holy Scripture plainly saith
That death is swallowed up by death,
His sting is lost for ever. Hallelujah!

Here the true Paschal Lamb we see,
Whom God so freely gave us;
He died on the accursed tree—
So strong his love!—to save us.
See, his blood doth mark our door;
Faith points to it, death passes o’er,
And Satan cannot harm us. Hallelujah!

So let us keep the festival
Whereto the Lord invites us;
Christ is himself the Joy of all,
The Sun that warms and lights us.
By his grace he doth impart
Eternal sunshine to the heart;
The night of sin is ended. Hallelujah!

Then let us feast this joyful day
On Christ, the Bread of heaven;
The Word of grace hath purged away
The old and evil leaven.
Christ alone our souls will feed,
He is our meat and drink indeed;
Faith lives upon no other. Hallelujah!

Discussion

[Kevin T. Bauder] Can a person be a Democrat and a fundamentalist? Not intelligently, no.

So what is the fundamentalist option?

I didn’t know that fundamentalists were all agreed on how their theological convictions translated into the social/political sphere.

Statements like this one are one of many that force young people, who once claimed to be fundamentalist, to look elsewhere for leadership.

IK

Ecclesia semper reformanda est

[Larry]

I am shocked at the brazen snobbery of this idea.

Unfortunately, we are not shocked at your language.

The complaints by some that a pastor just doesn’t have the time to accomplish his biblical mandate is a cop out. God knows exactly how much time is in the day and what a pastor is to accomplish with it. The problem is that so many opt for the single pastor model and then complain about a lack of time. If they would follow the NT pattern of plural elders (no church is ever said to have only one elder), then the time argument would be eliminated and no obstacle would exist to do their job. Alas, fidelity to truth is not popular.

First, time is not the only reason. Expertise is another, probably more primary, reason.

Second, many seminaries are functions of a local church (such as Detroit), and carry out these things in this way.

Third, the “single pastor model” has already been solidly established as an acceptable (though perhaps not ideal) model. To say that no church is every said to have only one elder is not really to say much at all, since the number of examples is small, and there is no clear evidence about how elders worked in church designated by cities. So while plurality may be good and even preferable, it not mandated by the Bible, as we can see by reading the Bible and noticing the lack of mandate for it.

Fourth, this has nothing to do with fidelity to the truth. But since you bring it up, 1 Tim 5:1 might be a verse worth some time in meditation.

I am not sure of your intent by your first comment ,but frankly I couldn’t care less. Snobbery is snobbery. Such an obvious, unbiblical statement was easily dismissed.

First, expertise is rather tricky isn’t it? Who has determined how much expertise a person must have? Somewhere, someone has decided that an MDiv is enough. Why not a DMin too? Of course there are those who do think that. You have set an artificial standard outside of Scripture. That is of course your prerogative.

Second, Detroit only partially fulfills this, as they take young men from other churches and have determined what they need for them to be qualified ministers.

Third, single pastor model is acceptable to a great many people. For that matter, so is the single bishop acting on behalf of God. I don’t care what is acceptable outside of Scripture. You seem to think it does matter though. That is of course your prerogative. The NT plainly states that every church had elders. If it said that every church had one pastor, you would be all over that. It doesn’t, so you arbitrarily determined it doesn’t have any real weight. Maybe one of the qualifying courses for minister had the single pastor model as best and that is how you were trained.

Fourth, it is about fidelity to the truth. If pastors were less political about their power, and followed the biblical model, then the duties given to them would be focused on instead of matters that simply take up his time. It is all about the truth. Your church doesn’t follow it, so you make excuses for why you can’t do certain things you are commanded to do.

Finally, I am pretty sure you don’t really want to apply 1 Tim 5:1 to this. If you were serious, then I will be even more sad for our institutions of “higher” learning.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

is very much part of this topic. If the authority of the church is, in fact, Scripturally paramount in matters of teaching and training for the ministry, in the guidance and training of pastors and teachers, then all of these tensions and conflicts would be resolved by the local church under whose authority they operate. But because they are outside of and sometimes treated as superior to the local church, we have churches who assume a diploma=qualifications (as in a, “XYZ University would not give a diploma to this guy if he wasn’t qualified” attitude) and Christian organizations that operate without any accountability to a local church.

Bro. Paul- I’m not comparing homeschooling to seminary point-for-point, but learning is learning, whether you are flying a space shuttle or pruning a tree or pastoring a church, and it is not way outside of the box for people to be self-motivated, self-directed, and to a large degree, self-taught. In specialties such as the medical or legal fields, practical skills are acquired by serving as an intern, after ‘textbook’ knowledge has been mastered, and people are weeded out who can’t cut it because someone is one-on-one working with them, determining whether or not they are fit to continue on that field/specialty.

The thing with seminary is, our ‘textbook’ is Scripture, and the qualifications are more than the ability to memorize, being good at math, or eye/hand coordination and dexterity. There is a spiritual component that comes into play, and if we are talking training men for ministry, the spiritual part, IMO, should come first.

This may be a rabbit trail of sorts, but after reading thread after thread about church/college conflicts, I think it is a worthy question.

I’ve said all about the Cedarville situation that I feel adequate to say, and thus, having drained my miniscule puddle of knowledge, I retire.

[Kevin T. Bauder]

James,

And how many John Bunyans have you produced in your ministry?

I thought so.

Kevin

So your response to me pointing out your obvious, elitist overstatement is to insult? Check yourself Kevin.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

I am not sure of your intent by your first comment ,but frankly I couldn’t care less. Snobbery is snobbery. Such an obvious, unbiblical statement was easily dismissed.

My intent was probably clear enough, but if not, I will be happy to be explicit. Your response to Kevin was in direct disobedience to God’s command in 1 Tim 5:1. He is an older man (though not ancient), and you did not appeal to him as a father; you sharply rebuked him. God said not to do that. Do you take Scripture seriously or no? It’s hard for me to imagine you would talk to your father that way. So I appeal to you as a brother to apply 1 Tim 5:1 to your interactions here. Not being able to care less may be a dangerous spot to be about this type of issue.

Having civil and respectful conversation is important here.

First, expertise is rather tricky isn’t it?

No, not really. It’s pretty easy. And I didn’t mention an MDiv here. In fact, I mentioned no degrees at all. I only mentioned knowledge. The MDiv is artificial, but it typically covers a wide range of theological training that pastors need. You don’t have to have an MDiv. You do have to know truth.

Second, Detroit only partially fulfills this, as they take young men from other churches and have determined what they need for them to be qualified ministers.

That wasn’t my impression, but of course I only attended there. They don’t “take young men from other churches.” Young men come voluntarily from other churches, and most (if not all) transfer their membership to a local church where they are involved in the ministry alongside a pastor. And DBTS doesn’t determine what they need to be qualified ministers. They determine what they need to graduate. DBTS allows the young men’s churches to determine if they are qualified.

The NT plainly states that every church had elders.

No it doesn’t. It doesn’t say anything about “every church.” In fact most churches it doesn’t even mention. And I am in favor of multiple elders. I am not in favor of adding to Scripture to make that mandatory because Scripture doesn’t make it mandatory.

Fourth, it is about fidelity to the truth. If pastors were less political about their power, and followed the biblical model, then the duties given to them would be focused on instead of matters that simply take up his time. It is all about the truth.

That doesn’t make sense, so I am not sure what you are trying to say. But whether or not a man goes to seminary to get theological training is not a matter of truth. It is a matter of practice. The Bible requires men to be trained. It does not specify exactly how that training is to take place. Truth can be gained in seminary. It can be taught in the pastor’s office. It can be gained through a book and a bunch of youtube videos I guess. But I believe seminaries should be part of a local church.

Your church doesn’t follow it, so you make excuses for why you can’t do certain things you are commanded to do.

How do you know our church doesn’t follow the truth? You don’t know anything about our church.

Finally, I am pretty sure you don’t really want to apply 1 Tim 5:1 to this. If you were serious, then I will be even more sad for our institutions of “higher” learning.

Actually, I am deadly serious. I think the Scriptures matter, and I think the truth matters. And I think we need to obey it. When you do not treat elders in accordance with the Scripture, I think it matters.

James,

This is why I’ve avoided SI for years.

Let’s get clear. There are insults, and there are pointings out of the obvious. Sometimes people who have overlooked the obvious feel insulted when it is pointed out to them. That does not make it an insult.

You might remember something else that’s pretty obvious. Nothing is proven by appealing to the example of a millennial genius. It’s like that kid (we’ve all met him) who argues that he doesn’t need to take math because Einstein flunked out of school. Well, if he’s another Einstein, maybe he doesn’t.

What a minister needs, he needs, however he gets it.

Anyone who is a millennial genius has my permission to skip college and seminary and go straight to the hall of ministerial fame.

If one is not a millennial genius, then appealing to the example of one in order to excuse a deficiency of training (or, worse yet, to encourage others to neglect proper training) is itself a pretty brazen form of snobbery.

A minister who cannot handle the text of Scripture will never be able to do what God calls him to do. The skills for handling Scripture are precisely those I’ve described. Without those skills, a pastor will only be able to echo what he has heard from others, and he will often find that he is not in a position to judge for himself whether what he has heard is really so.

The minister who cannot apply the text of Scripture will never be able to do what God calls him to do. The skills for applying Scripture include those I’ve described, though obviously they include more. All ministers need more than they could ever get in seminary. Most of them, however, cannot effectively make do with less. We once tried that route, and we are still suffering the consequences.

Now, as far as I am concerned, this bit of unpleasantness is over. In the old days when we used to have standalone BBS systems that required dial-up modems, our software had an “ignore” function that allowed us to add abusive posters (who were called “trolls”) to what was called a “killfile.” It would simply delete whatever the troll posted. Even today, Usenet readers have that option. Unfortunately, Sharper Iron does not offer it, so I’m going to have to make the adjustment internally in my own mind.

Isaac,

There may be an indefinite number of political options open to a fundamentalist, just as there may be an indefinite number of good foods that a fundamentalist could eat. In neither case do I know them all.

But I don’t have to know them all in order to know that the positions of the Democratic party are poisonous, just as I know that toadstools are poisonous.

Statements don’t force anybody to look anywhere. People make choices. If you are anything resembling a thoughtful person, then you are going to have to make a choice between the principles of biblical Christianity and the principles of the Democratic party. You cannot consistently hold both.

Kevin

[Kevin T. Bauder]

If you are anything resembling a thoughtful person, then you are going to have to make a choice between the principles of biblical Christianity and the principles of the Democratic party. You cannot consistently hold both.

Kevin

I don’t buy this even though I can’t ever remember voting for a Democrat. I am not sure what principles you are referring to that would make the Democratic party incompatible with biblical Christianity.

Economic principles? No. There are strengths and weaknesses to both sides of that debate and both have some advantages from a biblical and practical standpoint. But it seems clear that the Bible does not endorse any particular economic system. If it did, based on the Israel theocratic model, it would likely be somewhere between the two parties.

Social principles? That is a stronger argument, but even so, I am skeptical. Since the Bible is silent on such pet issues as the right to bear arms, it would seem to me that this comes down mostly to abortion and gay rights. The positions held by Democrats on those issues can be pretty nuanced. A person could for example believe strongly that government-sanctioned gay discrimination is wrong while still being against homosexuality.

I think that people could intelligently argue that the Democratic party, while having problems, has some biblical advantages over the Republican party in such areas as treatment of the poor. They could decide that the pros outweigh the cons. I have never seen the data but my suspicion is that the treatment of the poor the most common reason why some evangelicals are drawn to the Democratic party.

[James K]

[Kevin T. Bauder]

James,

And how many John Bunyans have you produced in your ministry?

I thought so.

Kevin

So your response to me pointing out your obvious, elitist overstatement is to insult? Check yourself Kevin.

Go away or I shall taught you a second time!

Kevin,

I do not know of anyone who agrees with all of any one party’s principles. There is “poison” in all parties, so I think your dichotomy between “biblical” Christianity and the Democratic party is unnecessary.

Either way, how does aligning with any party NOT transgress Fundamentalism’s practice of secondary separation?

Young fundamentalists are continually questioning whether or not they should “stay” within fundamentalism. When we realize that we do not operate under the same presuppositions that supposed leaders within fundamentalism do, in a sense we are “forced” to make a decision to look elsewhere.

IK

Ecclesia semper reformanda est

[GregH]

[Kevin T. Bauder]

If you are anything resembling a thoughtful person, then you are going to have to make a choice between the principles of biblical Christianity and the principles of the Democratic party. You cannot consistently hold both.

Kevin

I don’t buy this even though I can’t ever remember voting for a Democrat. I am not sure what principles you are referring to that would make the Democratic party incompatible with biblical Christianity.

Economic principles? No. There are strengths and weaknesses to both sides of that debate and both have some advantages from a biblical and practical standpoint. But it seems clear that the Bible does not endorse any particular economic system. If it did, based on the Israel theocratic model, it would likely be somewhere between the two parties.

Social principles? That is a stronger argument, but even so, I am skeptical. Since the Bible is silent on such pet issues as the right to bear arms, it would seem to me that this comes down mostly to abortion and gay rights. The positions held by Democrats on those issues can be pretty nuanced. A person could for example believe strongly that government-sanctioned gay discrimination is wrong while still being against homosexuality.

I think that people could intelligently argue that the Democratic party, while having problems, has some biblical advantages over the Republican party in such areas as treatment of the poor. They could decide that the pros outweigh the cons. I have never seen the data but my suspicion is that the treatment of the poor the most common reason why some evangelicals are drawn to the Democratic party.

+1

Ecclesia semper reformanda est

Kevin, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not intentionally insulting. My objection to your statement was not used to excuse a poor education, but where you have your confidence. You believe that the seminary is a must for a good ministry. I disagree but don’t think anymore needs to be said at this point.

Larry, there is just so much, but you are no doubt convinced in your own mind. You understand it or you don’t. You see what you want to see. I wish you well.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Acts 14:23 is one such passage for you Larry. Every church had plural elders. If you can find one that only had one, then I won’t bring it up again with you. Deal?

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Larry, I also believe 2 Timothy 3:16. In fact, I believe it is for all people. The foolish statement needed to be corrected. Hopefully we can both now move beyond this.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

Acts 14:23 is one such passage for you Larry. Every church had plural elders.

Every church where? You see, Acts 14 has a context in which “every church” has meaning. It doesn’t necessarily mean every church every where in the world. It means every church in the context of the missionary journey in Acts 14. That’s my point. The Bible doesn’t say anything about elders at every church in all places in all times. It simply doesn’t.

Can we extend that all churches everywhere in all times without exception as you want to? Perhaps. But that’s an argument that has to actually be made. It cannot rest on a bald assertion that all churches must have plurality when the biblical support is the phrase “every church” that refers to a specific area at a specific time.

But remember, your beef is not with me. I am in favor of plural elders. But I am in favor of the authority of Scripture, and Scripture does not mandate that anywhere that I know of, and you apparently don’t either because you haven’t shown it. And so because Scripture does not declare churches to be out of line for having a single elder, I do not have the liberty to do so.

Larry, I also believe 2 Timothy 3:16. In fact, I believe it is for all people. The foolish statement needed to be corrected. Hopefully we can both now move beyond this.

I am not sure how that is relevant. No one here objects to inspiration or to the profitability of Scripture. And no one objects to the correcting of foolish statements. Those are all irrelevant distractions from the point.

The particular issue at hand that I objected to was the disrespect shown to someone else. 1 Tim 5:1 has a clear and indisputable teaching on that.

Why don’t you do this: Get your fellow elders there together and ask them to look in on your participation here and particularly that comment and ask them if they believe that it is in line with what 1 Tim 5:1 says about dealing with older men. You don’t answer to me, but hopefully you answer to them and have some accountability with them.

And with that, we need to return this thread to its topic.

Here’s the perspective of someone who has spent the last 3 1/2 years taking on-line / modular MDiv classes from Baptist Bible Seminary in Clarks Summit, PA:

I have an undergrad in English and a MBA in marketing. I have worked in “corporate America” since 1997. I am thankful that I have a marketable degree / skill that has allowed me to provide for my family of six (with my wife at home) and still take 4-6 credit hours / semester at BBS w/o taking out loans. Based on my conversations with pastors and other seminary students in IFB-land and the SBC, I think it is wise for men interested in the ministry to pursue a marketable undergrad degree and then go on to seminary. I’ve seen too many Bible majors, youth ministry majors, evangelism majors, and even seminary-trained PhDs struggling to survive after 1) they discovered they weren’t really called to ministry, 2) they were fired from their ministry position (for whatever reason), 3) they accepted a pastorate of a small church that couldn’t possibly meet their growing family’s financial needs, or 4) they couldn’t find a teaching position at a college / seminary / university.

That being said, I believe seminary is essential for pastoral ministry to fulfill the “apt to teach” requirement in 1 Tim 3. I also believe that it is essential for the church to fulfill its responsibility to test, train, affirm, and send men into ministry. Most seminaries require a pastor’s recommendation for admission. If unqualified men are entering / leaving the seminary, it is ultimately a failure of the sending church / pastor to properly test, train, and affirm that the man meets the character qualifications of 1 Tim 3 / Titus 1. I am thankful that for the past 3 1/2 years I have been able to not only take seminary classes, but also to serve in my local church and to have my life, family, and ministry examined by my church family and elders. I am also thankful that BBS requires a year-long internship where I am mentored and trained by elders who have had years of practical ministry experience.

I’ve experienced what a lack of seminary education produces from the pulpit. No thank you!

I’ve also seen what happens to a church when it fails to test, train, and affirm men before sending them into ministry. No thank you!

As far as preparing for church ministry goes, I still trust Faith. I also trust Maranatha, where I graduated from, plus BJU, altho’ not necessarily in producing

Baptists. Northland and PCC would qualify somewhat for me. I pray for these schools.

I realize I lean toward every young person going to a Bible college at least one or two years. I feel that is just as important as one going to seminary.

A Bible college experience is important because of the necessity for studying and learning from the most important Book in the entire world, The Holy Scriptures which live and abide forever.

I do have respect and do appreciate Christian colleges, but Bible colleges are more important to me and that is not to put down the Christian colleges.

Bert Baker Ex. 15;2

This is the only example I know of a local church with a purposeful plan to train ministers:

http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/we-provide/internships/

Does anyone know of similar programs?

The usual method of a local church training ministers that I’ve seen involves the pastor taking his son (literally or figuratively) and trying to clone himself. The end result is sometimes similar to the original but maybe a shade or two lighter.

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

[Bert Baker] A Bible college experience is important because of the necessity for studying and learning from the most important Book in the entire world, The Holy Scriptures which live and abide forever.
Bert,

This is a non sequitur. Of course Bible study is essential for the believer. That has nothing to do with the importance of Bible college. That’s the church’s responsibility. I and my fellow elders are starting a class on systematic theology with our church this Sunday - using the same text book I used 20 years ago in Bible college. Is Bible college nice - yes. Necessary - not for this (though I would not necessarily extend this to seminary preparation for ministry).

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

I find myself in sympathy with Susan, Dr. Bauder, so at the risk of making myself foolish, let me venture forth here.

I think that what Susan and I would both prefer (based on our interactions) is some kind of training where local churches can give men the kinds of serious scriptural scrutiny and hands on experience (kind of a pre-seminary school) first to make sure that the prospective pastors are shown and known to be in alignment with Scripture (I Tim 3) and can get exposure to the ‘OJT’ of ministry, and then, after they’ve gotten their feet wet, “promoted” (for lack of a better term) to seminary, maybe with the church supporting them a little financially as ‘missionaries’ so that they can get the critical but more academic ministerial training (Greek, Hebrew, Church History, etc). It’s kind of that whole “Let a man first be tried” idea that some guy named Paul suggested to Timothy. :)

I can speak as someone who has both undergrad and grad degrees in Pastoral Studies, but right now I’m working in a full time career outside of the ministry (long story), and serving as a kind of second man/unpaid intern in my local church. I find that doing this internship-type relationship has been incredibly helpful and has exposed deficiencies that I wish I had know about before going off to school, and it’s increased my desire to serve in a church, not reduced it; it might also reduce the number of guys who either don’t really want to serve or aren’t taking it seriously to drop out and save everyone turmoil down the road. I also would have taken my studies a LOT more seriously if I had been forced to go through that process first, then gone to seminary afterward. The few men that I saw in grad school that had gone this route (usually ex-military guys) were easily the cream of the crop in my class.

Of course, that’s MUCH easier said than done, but I do think we see a little bit of a shift that way now - Calvary Lansdale had something like it back in the early ’00s (possibly earlier), Central and (I believe) DBTS do something like it, and I’ve heard that TMS and Bethlehem seminaries do that as well, but don’t know for sure. I’ve heard of other schools, of course, but don’t know much at all about them - feel free to share more information if you do know of this.

Thanks for interacting with hoi polloi. I appreciate the dialogue back and forth, esp. since Minnesota is a little far from New York!

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

[Jay] I think that what Susan and I would both prefer (based on our interactions) is some kind of training where local churches can give men the kinds of serious scriptural scrutiny and hands on experience (kind of a pre-seminary school) first to make sure that the prospective pastors are shown and known to be in alignment with Scripture (I Tim 3) and can get exposure to the ‘OJT’ of ministry, and then, after they’ve gotten their feet wet, “promoted” (for lack of a better term) to seminary, maybe with the church supporting them a little financially as ‘missionaries’ so that they can get the critical but more academic ministerial training (Greek, Hebrew, Church History, etc). It’s kind of that whole “Let a man first be tried” idea that some guy named Paul suggested to Timothy. :)

I’m not Dr Bauder, but…

Jay, yes, it is the church’s responsibility to test, train, affirm, and send men into ministry. Before men go off to bible school or seminary, the church needs to evaluate their lives, families, and calling to ministry. The church needs to evaluate whether the man truly possesses the spiritual gifts needed for pastoral ministry.

Unfortunately, what I’ve seen take place is that a teenager goes off to camp for a week and comes back excited saying he was called to be a youth pastor / missionary while at camp. Everyone is excited for his decision. However, there is no purposeful examination of his life and his calling, there is very little training / discipleship provided while he is still in high school, and there is no effort made to affirm whether he is truly gifted for pastoral ministry. Instead, he is paraded in front of the church where he tells everyone God called him to be a pastor. Off to Bible college he goes with a $500 church scholarship…

The other situation I’ve seen is when a man (in his 20s or 30s) believes God is calling him to ministry. He lets his pastor know about this desire, but the pastor offers very little in the way of theological, exegetical, or practical training for the man. Additionally, the man may evidence weaknesses in his life or in his family, but no one addresses those weaknesses with him. Instead, it is believed that if the man goes to bible college or seminary that those weaknesses will take care of themselves.

I believe there needs to be a more intentional process involved. The teen / man needs to be vetted by the church and the elders before they stand him in front of the congregation and tell the people that he is called to ministry. He needs an honest appraisal of his ministry giftedness, his personal character, and his family. In other words, he needs to be tested and trained before the pastor / church affirms his calling and sends him to bible school and/or seminary.

[T Howard]…it is the church’s responsibility to test, train, affirm, and send men into ministry. Before men go off to bible school or seminary, the church needs to evaluate their lives, families, and calling to ministry. The church needs to evaluate whether the man truly possesses the spiritual gifts needed for pastoral ministry…

I believe there needs to be a more intentional process involved. The teen / man needs to be vetted by the church and the elders before they stand him in front of the congregation and tell the people that he is called to ministry. He needs an honest appraisal of his ministry giftedness, his personal character, and his family. In other words, he needs to be tested and trained before the pastor / church affirms his calling and sends him to bible school and/or seminary.

In the best of all worlds, IMO, he would not have to leave his church to attend seminary. He could remain within the already established support system of church leadership, family, and friends, and thus accountability stays with his home church.

In the best of all worlds, IMO, he would not have to leave his church to attend seminary. He could remain within the already established support system of church leadership, family, and friends, and thus accountability stays with his home church.

That is one good way, sure. But “best”? Even in the NT, you had people like Timothy traveling with Paul and getting training away from home, or Jesus taking his disciples away from familiar surroundings… I understand the appeal, on one level, of a church producing a pastor from within the ranks. There is no inherent benefit, however, to a restricted perspective like that. Sometimes an “outsider” perspective, in fact, can be a great benefit (said the half-Filipino guy who never lived anywhere more than three years until he got into high school, and never lived in Minnesota until he came to be a pastor… :) ). Seriously, how many people are we ministering to here in American churches who have lived in the community all their lives. Less than half of our families have roots here in Marshall- most everyone came here for employment or something like that, either from another part of the state or country. Our most significant new ministry opportunity here the last three years has been with S’gaw Karen refugees from Burma, who comprise a third or more of our Sunday AM attendance most weeks. We could actually use some outside perspective to improve how we minister, but we are doing the best with what we have in the meantime.

Stability like you speak of is great, but it isn’t necessarily a bad thing to have movement, either.

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

[Susan R] In the best of all worlds, IMO, he would not have to leave his church to attend seminary. He could remain within the already established support system of church leadership, family, and friends, and thus accountability stays with his home church.

As I mentioned before, I’m a on-line MDiv student at BBS. That means that I can remain in my church and remain at my employer while taking seminary classes. To me, the ability to complete my MDiv on-line has been a blessing both to me and to my church. I can immediately apply what I’m learning in the classroom to my ministry context, whether it’s biblical languages, theology, exegetical methods, or ministry leadership. I know I’m missing out on the camaraderie involved with a residential program, but I think being deeply involved in a local church provides me with the sanctification, challenge, and sharpening that I need. In reality, I believe I’m receiving the best of both worlds: seminary-level training while living in an intimate, messy local church context.

BTW, there’s no way I could receive the seminary-level theological and biblical languages training I have received at BBS from my elders. First, because they don’t have it themselves. Second, because they don’t have enough time in the evenings and on the weekends every week to spend with me (remember, I have a full-time job). And, third, because I would not receive a different (and sometimes better / more helpful) perspective on ministry, preaching, and shepherding.

I appreciate the back and forth.

If you read the Biblical passages that speak to the character and skill demands of serving the Lord’s church as an elder/pastor/bishop I think all of us would agree it’s daunting.

We need to work together - home’s, seminaries, churches. I think most of us want the same thing. Men who have been tested and who have allowed their minds, hearts and hands to be challenged.

So in no particular order - here are the dangers….or maybe better……here are the needs, I’ve seen after serving 21 plus years in pastoral ministry, studying and graduating from several learning institutions:

1. Godly men. Not smart men. Not sharp men. Not great “talkers.” Not even great “thinkers” or even “leaders” (although all of those are helpful). Humble men who love and walk closely with the Lord (Jeremiah 9?). Men who love to read about God….to hear from him in His word and through prayer. Leaders who are so broken over their own natural propensity for “self,” it’s easy to dispense grace and mercy because you can’t imagine anyone else other than the person you see every morning in the mirror who needed more grace and mercy! Connected to this is also the idea of being Godly in the sense of growing in the knowledge of God. Obviously this is connected with the Scriptures (next category) but it is also understanding how others have grown in the knowledge of God. It is also an emphasis of growing in the Lord personally through personal (and corporate) study, meditation and worship.

2. Bible men. So it’s true it would be possible to learn the Scriptures without the rigors of seminary - but I don’t believe I have or had the amount of discipline and focus that it would require what I’ve been taught in a BA, MA, MDiv, ThM and D.Min programs of study. I’m sure there are those out there who have - that’s great. But with the continued effects of dyslexia as well as just my ability to be confused - wow - did I ever need the interaction of those men who have spent a life-time focused on church history, or theology, or Ecclesiastes, or Greek, or Apologetics, or even……and I can’t imagine I’m admitting their value……the seminary librarians! All of that is valuable only if I love the Book! If I love theology or philosophy more than the book, a seminary education can actually take away from one’s commitment. Because a text can only mean what it only meant and it a text can never mean what it never meant - one will need to use all the tools he can get his hands on to make sure we are handling God’s word with accuracy and care!

3. Family men. I love my wife and my sons. Today there is nothing and no one (at least here) more important to me than Toni, Jonathan, Jeremy and Josh. There was a time early on in ministry I would have chosen “ministry” over family. Wow talk about idolatry of the Baal order! God broke me of that. I’m sure there are still times when I’m tempted by the idol of ministry. We have to have a generation of leaders who while not ignoring the church family will not allow that calling to undermine the larger call of leading the home. Forgive me for being dispensationally sloppy here - frankly we need to make sure young men headed into ministry are the priests of their home! If they are not willing to do so - don’t send them to seminary!

4. Church men. There is no question that a large slice of the pie here rests on congregations to train, test and then use incrementally those who desire to serve the church in shepherding kinds of ministry. We must have leaders who love the local church and don’t have an “entitlement mentality” towards the local church. How can I get what I want out of these people! - No! Godly leaders will be looking to serve the church not demand of the church. It bothers me - I keep running into seminary grads that 1) were never faithful or even really used while in a local church while going to seminary or 2) they come out thinking they know better and so until they are in their own church they cause “havoc” wherever they go to church because the dear pastor who doesn’t have all the education they have is a “dip-stick” in their opinion. Talk about spitting on the local church!

5. Loving men. So if you don’t like people why in the world would you pastor! Oh my word - if all you want to do is to stay in your office and study do not shepherd! That’s like a shepherd who stays out of the field reading about sheep, learning about sheep, talking about sheep, thinking about sheep, drawing pictures about sheep, arguing about sheep - but never hanging with the sheep! Pleeeeeeeeaze! Yes - if you are going to shepherd and actively know the sheep you’re going to have to learn how to delegate some of the preaching, teaching, administration, counseling, etc…..but if you don’t trust anyone other than yourself - you will kill yourself trying to do it all. Love and trust God’s people! You can’t imagine how much they can get done - especially with the gifts of the Holy Spirit they were given. One more aspect of being a loving man is being patient with those who need to grow in the Lord. Often time the highly trained are too impatient. In large part because they haven’t gotten over themselves yet……which brings us to the next category.

6. Humble men. We often assume that the more trained you are the more arrogant you are. Frankly I’ve met just as many (maybe more) leaders whose reason for not receiving training was that they thought they knew it all - or knew it best! Wowzers……talk about arrogance! When you work on a leadership or elders team, there is such diversity. One of the great things you quickly learn is how you can learn so much from other brothers……but not if you think you know it all! Unfortunatly…..there is a reason why some of our institutions have a reputation of being a “know it all” type of a place. That’s because too many of our graduates come out with that “reputation.” I think it should be required of all ministerial students to have to clean the bathrooms in the university or seminary at least once a month or for the larger seminaries - clean the bathrooms at least once a semester. For those students that say it’s beneath them - it would give us a chance to explain they haven’t been called into ministry yet. Those who are called will have a servants heart - that rejoices in cleaning toilets for the glory of God!

7. Balanced men. I’m trying like thunder to loose weight and get the exercise I need. I am working hard at doing some “outside reading” (right now a biography of Richard the Lionheart) as well as Biblical or theological reading (right now a book on Pastoral Theology by my brother in law - David Smith - “Pastor Revisited: A Re-examination of the Primary Role of the New Testament Pastor”) while I’m working with an editor who is almost done with my own book on the decision-making of the church. About a month ago I took my boys out to the desert where we exercised our 2nd amendment rights with a variety of weapons. My dear father and I and several other friends where treated to a College bowl game near the end of December at ASU stadium. It was fun to watch dad enjoy the victory of MSU over Texas Christian. If I need it or not about once a week I try to watch a 1950 black and white Sci-Fi with a small bucket of fat-free popcorn (Thankfully Hollywood made about 300 of these kinds of flicks back in the 50’s and early 60’s). I try to spend some personal “one-on-one” time with each son as often as I can. About once a week my wife and I enjoy a date together. I don’t have this perfectly wired but we need to encourage our young leaders the importance of balance and then accepting the fact that you might not be the next Kevin Bauder - but that’s OK because we really only need one of him. And we need one of you!

Final Thought - I could go on (opps - looks like I did - sorry for the length - perhaps we need “concise men!” :)) - we could easily come up with more categories like “careful men,” “thinking men,” “courageous men,” etc….. Let me wrap this up. So in order to have this from upcoming leaders, it will require that men pick up the skills and the character that Godly churches, homes and institutions care about. It may be that a leader simply cannot have access to a seminary - but certainly he can apply himself to the Word and step by step grow into the wise leader that God will greatly use in the life of his church and the lives of his children.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;

Bro. Linscott, surely you understand that I wasn’t suggesting that a man never travel or spend time with other ministers.

The typical scenario is that for a man to attend seminary, he has to leave, not just his hometown, but his home church. He then promptly joins another church under another pastor, with whom he may have little prior knowledge and no relationship. For a time, he attends classes with strangers, and is taught by strangers. He may develop deep and meaningful relationships with them, and that’s great, but isn’t there something significant and irreplaceable about the accountability of friends and family and church leadership connections that have been formed over time?

We seem to value be a faithful member of one’s local church- until it’s time to train for ministry… and then the man leaves and joins whatever church the seminary approves of? That just doesn’t strike me as a best case scenario, or a particularly Biblical case either.

BTW, there’s no way I could receive the seminary-level theological and biblical languages training I have received at BBS from my elders. First, because they don’t have it themselves…

Bro. Howard- according to the apparent consensus in this thread, they aren’t qualified to be in the ministry anyway.

My pastor is fairly handy in Greek and can suss out the Hebrew. But, I don’t know if he is apt to teach either language or if he had the time to do so.

[Susan R] SNIP

BTW, there’s no way I could receive the seminary-level theological and biblical languages training I have received at BBS from my elders. First, because they don’t have it themselves…

Bro. Howard- according to the apparent consensus in this thread, they aren’t qualified to be in the ministry anyway.

Hoping to shed more light than heat..

He may develop deep and meaningful relationships with them, and that’s great, but isn’t there something significant and irreplaceable about the accountability of friends and family and church leadership connections that have been formed over time?

Sure there is. But not every church is in a position to do so effectively. My home state of Maine, for example- there are very few Fundamental churches, and many of the ones that are there are struggling, by and large, to pay a full-time salary for one man, even. You can mentor guys in a situation like that, but there is little possibility of providing in-depth academic instruction for others. The small churches make it very easy to get an insulated perspective. I would also observe that seminary training among the pastors that are there is the exception. There are a few- Kevin has mentioned Ken Endean, for example, who is in the southern, more populated region of the state (which we would often refer to as “the other Maine” :) ), You get further north and inland and many of the men only have 2 or three year Bible Institute training. I was an exception when I ministered there with a four-year bachelors. In that scenario, I really see the value of sending men with an inclination for ministry away for further training. Some won’t come back, but some might.

What you are speaking of is an ideal, but I would say that in the end, it is best going to work out for philosophy-shaping than the academic end of things. I like what T Howard has brought into this with the online option- I too am taking classes, currently, from the same institution he is. It is a good way to keep training while remaining in your local church and so on. I would also observe that if one does leave hometown and home church, one should make sure he plants roots in the church he will be in as he trains. When my wife and I did go to Faith as newlyweds, we went down two months early in order to find a church before all the other students came, so that we could know the people and find a place to serve. That ended up being the church I belonged to the longest period in my life (over 8 years between college for my wife and I, plus time as a salaried associate pastor after graduation). So, it’s what you make of it.

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

There are some churches that are trying to combine the best of both worlds. Sojourn Community Church in Louisville is partnering with The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary for its Pastors School.

-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)

Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA

Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University

[Joel Tetreau]

I appreciate the back and forth.

If you read the Biblical passages that speak to the character and skill demands of serving the Lord’s church as an elder/pastor/bishop I think all of us would agree it’s daunting.

We need to work together - home’s, seminaries, churches. I think most of us want the same thing. Men who have been tested and who have allowed their minds, hearts and hands to be challenged.

So in no particular order - here are the dangers….or maybe better……here are the needs, I’ve seen after serving 21 plus years in pastoral ministry, studying and graduating from several learning institutions:

1. Godly men. Not smart men. Not sharp men. Not great “talkers.” Not even great “thinkers” or even “leaders” (although all of those are helpful). Humble men who love and walk closely with the Lord (Jeremiah 9?). Men who love to read about God….to hear from him in His word and through prayer. Leaders who are so broken over their own natural propensity for “self,” it’s easy to dispense grace and mercy because you can’t imagine anyone else other than the person you see every morning in the mirror who needed more grace and mercy! Connected to this is also the idea of being Godly in the sense of growing in the knowledge of God. Obviously this is connected with the Scriptures (next category) but it is also understanding how others have grown in the knowledge of God. It is also an emphasis of growing in the Lord personally through personal (and corporate) study, meditation and worship.

2. Bible men. So it’s true it would be possible to learn the Scriptures without the rigors of seminary - but I don’t believe I have or had the amount of discipline and focus that it would require what I’ve been taught in a BA, MA, MDiv, ThM and D.Min programs of study. I’m sure there are those out there who have - that’s great. But with the continued effects of dyslexia as well as just my ability to be confused - wow - did I ever need the interaction of those men who have spent a life-time focused on church history, or theology, or Ecclesiastes, or Greek, or Apologetics, or even……and I can’t imagine I’m admitting their value……the seminary librarians! All of that is valuable only if I love the Book! If I love theology or philosophy more than the book, a seminary education can actually take away from one’s commitment. Because a text can only mean what it only meant and it a text can never mean what it never meant - one will need to use all the tools he can get his hands on to make sure we are handling God’s word with accuracy and care!

3. Family men. I love my wife and my sons. Today there is nothing and no one (at least here) more important to me than Toni, Jonathan, Jeremy and Josh. There was a time early on in ministry I would have chosen “ministry” over family. Wow talk about idolatry of the Baal order! God broke me of that. I’m sure there are still times when I’m tempted by the idol of ministry. We have to have a generation of leaders who while not ignoring the church family will not allow that calling to undermine the larger call of leading the home. Forgive me for being dispensationally sloppy here - frankly we need to make sure young men headed into ministry are the priests of their home! If they are not willing to do so - don’t send them to seminary!

4. Church men. There is no question that a large slice of the pie here rests on congregations to train, test and then use incrementally those who desire to serve the church in shepherding kinds of ministry. We must have leaders who love the local church and don’t have an “entitlement mentality” towards the local church. How can I get what I want out of these people! - No! Godly leaders will be looking to serve the church not demand of the church. It bothers me - I keep running into seminary grads that 1) were never faithful or even really used while in a local church while going to seminary or 2) they come out thinking they know better and so until they are in their own church they cause “havoc” wherever they go to church because the dear pastor who doesn’t have all the education they have is a “dip-stick” in their opinion. Talk about spitting on the local church!

5. Loving men. So if you don’t like people why in the world would you pastor! Oh my word - if all you want to do is to stay in your office and study do not shepherd! That’s like a shepherd who stays out of the field reading about sheep, learning about sheep, talking about sheep, thinking about sheep, drawing pictures about sheep, arguing about sheep - but never hanging with the sheep! Pleeeeeeeeaze! Yes - if you are going to shepherd and actively know the sheep you’re going to have to learn how to delegate some of the preaching, teaching, administration, counseling, etc…..but if you don’t trust anyone other than yourself - you will kill yourself trying to do it all. Love and trust God’s people! You can’t imagine how much they can get done - especially with the gifts of the Holy Spirit they were given. One more aspect of being a loving man is being patient with those who need to grow in the Lord. Often time the highly trained are too impatient. In large part because they haven’t gotten over themselves yet……which brings us to the next category.

6. Humble men. We often assume that the more trained you are the more arrogant you are. Frankly I’ve met just as many (maybe more) leaders whose reason for not receiving training was that they thought they knew it all - or knew it best! Wowzers……talk about arrogance! When you work on a leadership or elders team, there is such diversity. One of the great things you quickly learn is how you can learn so much from other brothers……but not if you think you know it all! Unfortunatly…..there is a reason why some of our institutions have a reputation of being a “know it all” type of a place. That’s because too many of our graduates come out with that “reputation.” I think it should be required of all ministerial students to have to clean the bathrooms in the university or seminary at least once a month or for the larger seminaries - clean the bathrooms at least once a semester. For those students that say it’s beneath them - it would give us a chance to explain they haven’t been called into ministry yet. Those who are called will have a servants heart - that rejoices in cleaning toilets for the glory of God!

7. Balanced men. I’m trying like thunder to loose weight and get the exercise I need. I am working hard at doing some “outside reading” (right now a biography of Richard the Lionheart) as well as Biblical or theological reading (right now a book on Pastoral Theology by my brother in law - David Smith - “Pastor Revisited: A Re-examination of the Primary Role of the New Testament Pastor”) while I’m working with an editor who is almost done with my own book on the decision-making of the church. About a month ago I took my boys out to the desert where we exercised our 2nd amendment rights with a variety of weapons. My dear father and I and several other friends where treated to a College bowl game near the end of December at ASU stadium. It was fun to watch dad enjoy the victory of MSU over Texas Christian. If I need it or not about once a week I try to watch a 1950 black and white Sci-Fi with a small bucket of fat-free popcorn (Thankfully Hollywood made about 300 of these kinds of flicks back in the 50’s and early 60’s). I try to spend some personal “one-on-one” time with each son as often as I can. About once a week my wife and I enjoy a date together. I don’t have this perfectly wired but we need to encourage our young leaders the importance of balance and then accepting the fact that you might not be the next Kevin Bauder - but that’s OK because we really only need one of him. And we need one of you!

Final Thought - I could go on (opps - looks like I did - sorry for the length - perhaps we need “concise men!” :)) - we could easily come up with more categories like “careful men,” “thinking men,” “courageous men,” etc….. Let me wrap this up. So in order to have this from upcoming leaders, it will require that men pick up the skills and the character that Godly churches, homes and institutions care about. It may be that a leader simply cannot have access to a seminary - but certainly he can apply himself to the Word and step by step grow into the wise leader that God will greatly use in the life of his church and the lives of his children.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Well said, Joel. And thanks…I now have my Father’s Day message for this year :).

Seriously, I appreciate your thoughts.

Mark Mincy

www.theologicalresources.org

Here you go. As my Grandpa used to say “there’s nothing holding you back but your speed.” Look for more opportunities like this. Autodidacticism needs to be a big part of what pastors look for in their own education.

Yes, many of my opinions/suggestions are based on an ideal situation. Our Christian walk is often guided by the pursuance of an ‘ideal’, so I’m OK with that.

2 Tim. 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

That’s the ideal. No excuses, no “It’s too difficult” or “That’s not practical”. The intended pattern here is fairly clear.

The nature of instruction, as many seem to view it, is that learning is based primarily on the conveyance of information. However, mastery is accomplished by guided practice and demonstration of skills, not by rote memorization.

For instance, I have an eidetic memory- I can walk out of the grocery store and sing word-for-word whatever song was playing, even if I have never heard it before. If only Name that Tune was still on tv…. I can also ‘see’ pages that I have studied, and memorize by picturing the page in my mind and essentially ‘reading’ it. I can pass any test you care to put in front of me after about 15 minutes of study. Big whoop-de-doo, because while it’s a fun party trick, it doesn’t make me (gender notwithstanding) qualified for ministry.

[T Howard] Most seminaries require a pastor’s recommendation for admission. If unqualified men are entering / leaving the seminary, it is ultimately a failure of the sending church / pastor to properly test, train, and affirm that the man meets the character qualifications of 1 Tim 3 / Titus 1.

My main point has been and remains that too many seminaries are disconnected from local churches, and bear no responsibility for the men to whom they grant diplomas. It’s a long span of time from registration to graduation, so who is overseeing these men to ensure that those who receive a diploma are, in actuality, qualified to minister as per Scriptural guidelines, and not just completed courses and a passing GPA?

Do seminaries refuse to grant diplomas to guys who have serious marital problems? Have gotten themselves deeply into unsecured debt? Have a porn addiction? If they become aware, they might- but because they typically do not have the kind of relationships with their students that causes these character issues to come to light, men are granted diplomas and set loose to prey on sheep without anyone being the wiser. That’s why mentoring is not just important, it is essential.

As for the topic- we may be on a rabbit trail (my apologies to the OP) but I think the underlying issue here is that the seminary is supposed to be a practical solution for the need to effectively teach and train ministers, which is Scripturally a function of the local church. But when seminaries leave that authority structure, all kinds of mischief seems to follow.

While Cedarville isn’t billed as a seminary per se, it does grant ministry degrees, and the problems that I have been grousing about cannot be addressed properly at such a large institution. Where the school stands doctrinally doesn’t tell me anything about where their graduates stand on doctrine or in conduct.

These seemingly disparate ideas (the premise of the OP and my comments/questions) are very much connected in my mind.

[Susan R] My main point has been and remains that too many seminaries are disconnected from local churches, and bear no responsibility for the men to whom they grant diplomas. It’s a long span of time from registration to graduation, so who is overseeing these men to ensure that those who receive a diploma are, in actuality, qualified to minister as per Scriptural guidelines, and not just completed courses and a passing GPA?

Do seminaries refuse to grant diplomas to guys who have serious marital problems? Have gotten themselves deeply into unsecured debt? Have a porn addiction? If they become aware, they might- but because they typically do not have the kind of relationships with their students that causes these character issues to come to light, men are granted diplomas and set loose to prey on sheep without anyone being the wiser. That’s why mentoring is not just important, it is essential.

Susan,

I sympathize with the majority of what you have to say in this thread, but I think you are minimizing the process a little too much here. No seminary I know of sends guys out stamped for ministry. They issue a diploma - that’s it. It says they have learned certain material to a certain level of mastery. With or without a seminary diploma, it is still the churches who call ordination counsels. It is the churches who ordain ministers. The seminary is essentially a para-church organization that helps men prepare to stand before their churches. The churches are responsible to verify men are “qualified to minister as per scriptural guidelines and not just completed courses and a passing GPA.” I don’t think that attending seminary has to preclude the mentoring relationship between a pastor and a student, even if the student has relocated to a new church for the duration of seminary.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

It’s a long span of time from registration to graduation, so who is overseeing these men to ensure that those who receive a diploma are, in actuality, qualified to minister as per Scriptural guidelines, and not just completed courses and a passing GPA?

Susan,

I am not sure how a church taking direct responsibility for the academics changes what you seemed to be concerned about. Churches should and do bear the responsibility for gaging spiritual qualifications (ordination, for example), though charlatans can just as easily come out of a local church setting as they can the college/seminary model. Any church who is looking for a qualified man to serve in a pastoral capacity should do more than consult the degree-granting institution- anyone who doesn’t bears the responsibility of their own folly. Anyone can go out and start their own church, regardless of credentials, and there isn’t much that can be done about that in our settings, other than “mark and avoid.”

Regarding ordination, commissioning, and so on- we had a recent example here in Minnesota where a Central MDiv was being sent out of a rural MBA church to oversee a church plant. That church ultimately determined that the seminary grad was not immediately fit for the task, and did not commission him. The man complied with the church, by the way.

I say that to observe that churches should be and are involved, even in the seminary model. It can and does work.

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

Susan,

Let me just echo what Chip and Greg said in that I believe you are confusing getting a diploma with local church ordination. As I said before, Southeastern Seminary trained me and gave me a diploma to say I completed the required education that most churches are looking for, but they had nothing to do with approving me to go into the ministry. That was done by my pastor and my local church who examined me and ordained me for the ministry.

I know there are mainline denominational models that ordination follows completing your education and the two are linked, but I have never seen that anywhere in Baptist life, whether, independent, Southern, or any conservative non-Baptist churches.

If they become aware, they might- but because they typically do not have the kind of relationships with their students that causes these character issues to come to light …

Not to raise something I raised before, but well, to raise something I raised before, how do you know this? Do you have seminary experience in a variety of seminaries? Do you have a study? Do you have some evidence for this? If so, then tell us what it is. If not, then why say it?

You may be right. But I don’t know. But we need more than this to substantiate it, don’t we? I don’t think good points are well-served by unsupportable arguments,.

I have limited experience from within seminaries, since being female, I have no reason to actually attend one. I did graduate from Massillon Baptist College in 1989, and that is the limit of my firsthand sitting-in-the-classroom experience within a seminary/college situation.

My experience lies at the local church level, having been involved in leadership type positions in several churches since 1987, either because my husband was serving in leadership, or I myself was acting as a teacher, leading ladies’ discipleship programs, or as a SS Superintendent.

You could say that I haven’t seen as much of the training process itself as I have the fruit of it. Therefore I use the word ‘typical’ so that when referring to ‘seminaries’, I (attempt to) convey that I mean ‘seminaries without distinction’, not ‘seminaries without exception’.

I fully understand that there is a big difference between training someone for ministry in general and ordaining someone for a specific position. I just wonder how many churches understand the difference.

I hope you all understand that, while some of my comments sound like statements, they are more like questions and ponderings as to why there is so often a disconnect between the training process and the approval of ministers. I think this is a problem that feeds into many current church/college conflicts.

I feel the need to express my appreciation for all of the kind and thoughtful responses I have received in this thread. I haven’t been dismissed or patronized. That has been a tremendous source of blessing and encouragement to me, and I want ya’ll to know that I am grateful to be part of a conversation with so many good and gracious gentlemen.

Well, though the discussion has been interesting, we seem to have strayed from the original issue.

Fourth Baptist Church of Minneapolis (now Plymouth) had an institute in place at the same time they operated a seminary. The institute was very helpful, I’m sure, though all I ever saw was their printed class materials. I attended their seminary after a very good education in a local church in Illinois. I entered Bible College and whizzed through all the Bible curriculum because of that local church’s dedication to a challenging program. When we quizzed (in Sunday pm youth group) over books of the Bible, we practically had to memorize the chapters because of the high level of competition(!). Same at our summer camp (Camp Joy in Wisconsin). Even though the church was (too) strict in many ways, I still entered Bible College with the experience of having served in preaching and teaching and music capacities. Churches CAN be great for that—and MORE! So I don’t see a conflict between local churches and seminaries. They should complement (and compliment) one another!

I am no longer in the GARBC or even the Baptist fold. Not a “forever” or antagonistic statement but is due partly to an impression over many years that Cedarville COULD have remained more conservative had their innovations been more welcome and their errors more graciously met with friendly counsel. I heard and read things c. Cedarville that were generated by mostly GARBC people that made me cringe. I heard and read things from Faith that also made me cringe for being of a (though most carefully worded) critical nature. I want both schools to be blessed. I’d welcome Dr. Bauder to the presidency of Cedarville AND of Faith.

gdwightlarson "You can be my brother without being my twin."

I am in my second year of my MDiv from Maranatha, which I’m completing online. I came there with a BA in Emergency & Disaster Management, which I admit is a pretty bizarre segue into Christian education! I had no academic Christian training prior to Seminary - just discipleship in the local church. I was military for 10 years so I was at quite a few churches!

Online education is a blessing for folks who are established in life and can’t uproot and go to a brick and mortar school. I’ve been married 10 years, have three kids and a mortgage. My house is worth $60000 less than when I bought it five years back. I each teen Sunday School at my local church. I’m not going anywhere. Online education is outstanding and it should not be knocked. I did my AA at a traditional school, my BA online and my MA online. I’ve seen both. There is no quality difference. Some schools probably do it badly - mine haven’t.

There has been some discussion here critical of seminary education. Seminary is not “necessary,” but it is very helpful. I’m a deacon at my church, and we called a Pastor with “only” an MA from a hard-right fundy school to be our Pastor. He is a good man and is studying for his MDiv now. His preaching has gotten better once he started his MDiv. School helps - deny it all you want. He admits his preaching has gotten better. I have never had a Pastor with anything but a BA. They have all been good men who loved the Lord. They would have handled the Word better if they had more education. This is not a slam - it is a statement of fact, no malice intended. I chose to go for my MDiv because of this - my Pastor even recommended I get the MDiv. People can be critical of higher Christian education if they wish - though I don’t know why. What are we afraid of?

There has also been some mention of the cost of education. The cost of education is ridiculous - there is no denying it. The GI Bill takes this worry away. I have enough to get my MDiv and a DMin sometime down the road, and not pay anything out of pocket. This is a blessing many folks don’t have. Outside of joining the military or racking up enough debt to choke an elephant, there doesn’t appear to be many options. I have seen some quality institutions, like Columbia Evangelical Seminary or Veritas School of Theology, who are trying to begin to fill this gap. They lack accreditation, though, if that is important to you.

Seminaries do not exist to put a stamp of approval on a man - the local church does that. I admit I have much less experience than other folks here, but when we called our current Pastor we didn’t care about his degree - we wanted to talk to him. Those who see Seminary as a rubber stamp for Pastoral leadership either misunderstand the process or simply have a different process than what I am familiar with!

I apologize for continuing down a rabbit trail which has nothing to do with the original point of this topic - but I wanted to contribute my bit to this fascinating discussion.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

For those of you who have the “seminary is the only way,” how should a missionary go about training nationals to be pastors/church planters? Would you argue that they need to go back to the US to learn at our seminaries? Would you argue the first missionary on a particular field should build a seminary before a church so that nationals can be trained properly?

I think there is a clear distinction in purpose between the different institutions we’re discussing. Bible Institutes and Colleges train workers. Seminaries train leaders. Doctoral programs train scholars. Workers, leaders and scholars are all needed. Some are on the front-lines, others are training those who are going to the front-lines. There is no distinction of worthiness between these different roles. I am by no means suggesting somebody who went to a Bible College cannot be a leader or a scholar. I am merely saying that getting progressively higher Christian education greatly assists along the way.

I don’t seriously think anybody would suggest a “seminary” must be planted on the mission field before a church. I do believe everyone would agree that some kind of institute/college/whatever must be established to train local Pastors.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Would you argue the first missionary on a particular field should build a seminary before a church so that nationals can be trained properly?

Not only that… but in keeping with the OP, said seminary should have Baptist in the name… :D

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

For those of you who have the “seminary is the only way,” how should a missionary go about training nationals to be pastors/church planters?

Remember that seminary is about training. So he should train in some type of formal way, teaching what they need to know. They most likely should not come to the states for it because of both expense, cultural differences, family, ministry, etc.

No one is doubting that you can acquire a tremendous education from Seminary. I have an undergrad and am working on a masters right now. I love it. I would recommend that others learn everything they possibly can from good teachers.

My objection from the beginning was to Kevin’s absurd statement that seminary is a requirement to avoid an ignorant ministry. I went back and saw that he also was talking about how the preacher needed to be skilled in rhetoric. I remember Paul saying something about that somewhere.

God requires the pastors of the church to train up the faithful men. Because of various issues clouding the NT church pattern of ministry (including single pastor), people have determined they need another program to fulfill the function of the church because the church can’t do it.

If the church is not training up the faithful men, they think they can ship them off to a school to do it for them. It is cheaper for the church that way I suppose. However, they then get into these disputes about whether a school answers to the churches or if the schools answer to the dollar.

1 Kings 8:60 - so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God and that there is no other.

[Larry]

For those of you who have the “seminary is the only way,” how should a missionary go about training nationals to be pastors/church planters?

Remember that seminary is about training. So he should train in some type of formal way, teaching what they need to know. They most likely should not come to the states for it because of both expense, cultural differences, family, ministry, etc.

Larry, that might be true in many cases, but in the countries that are closed to American missionaries, it is often most effective to bring Christian leaders from those countries to the US for schooling so they can return and educate people in their homeland.

My grandpa, Eldon Brock, served 20 years in the pastorate and 20 years as the camp director of Lake Ann Camp in Michigan. Since his “retirement” he has started two missions agencies. He started Closed Door Ministries (which he later handed off to its current president) to “Assist a few to disciple many to reach millions.” One of the first initiatives was bringing key teachers/administrators in a Bible college in Burma over to the states for advanced seminary degrees so they could return and better train up national pastors.

-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)

Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA

Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University

[James K]

Kevin, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not intentionally insulting. My objection to your statement was not used to excuse a poor education, but where you have your confidence. You believe that the seminary is a must for a good ministry. I disagree but don’t think anymore needs to be said at this point.

James, I totally agree with you and understand what you’re trying to say. The church of “Christendom” clings tightly to its dying institutional ways which have professionalized the ministry. How in the world did the first few centuries of the early church survive without Seminary? The local church is supposed to be the place of training pastors and teachers. But we have outsourced this to seminaries since we have bought in to the Christendom mode of the church that began with the Catholic church and came to its fullest expression in the middle ages.

I would like to see online seminaries like Veritas School of Theology (see the banner ad on this site) flourish more and more so that training that the local church lacks expertise in can be accessible for local churches and men can be trained in their churches in the midst of real ministry. Seminary takes a guy out of the context of real life on life ministry, extracts him to a classroom and then puts him back into real ministry like taking a guy out of a battle field, flying him 50,000 feet above the battle for training and then putting him back on the ground.

[Kevin T. Bauder]

I would sooner have my child in a Catholic university or a state school than in Cedarville University.

Kevin

…but it is statements like this that make me glad that I no longer identify with the vast majority of contemporary fundamentalists. There is also a surreal resemblance in Kevin in this post and his replies compared to the article last week involving Ketchum that reminds one of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. So very confusing. And absolutely ludicrous.

And disappointing.

And unfortunately, typical.

smh

Dan Burrell Cornelius, NC Visit my Blog "Whirled Views" @ www.danburrell.com