A Tale of Two Colleges

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Kevin T. Bauder
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This week brings fascinating news from two colleges. The two institutions are facing almost opposite situations, and the contrast between them is both remarkable and illustrative. Because change occurs constantly, Christian organizations are constantly required to apply their principles to new situations. Cedarville University and Faith Baptist Bible College provide a clear contrast in terms of how new applications might take place.

The school that is now Cedarville University started out as a Bible institute in Cleveland. During the early 1950s it acquired the name and campus of Cedarville College, formerly a Presbyterian school. For many years, Cedarville College staked out its identity as a fundamentalist, Baptist institution. Under the leadership of James T. Jeremiah, it was one of the flagship schools identified with the Regular Baptist movement.

In 1978, Paul Dixon became president of the college. He brought with him a vision to make Cedarville into a world-class university. Regular Baptists, however, had neither the numerical nor the economic strength to fulfill his dream. Dixon needed a larger constituency and broader appeal, and in pursuit of these goals he began to downplay some of the distinctives that Regular Baptists thought important. There was a softening of ecclesiastical separation as the platform featured a broader variety of evangelicals. There was an increasing openness and even friendliness toward the more current trends in popular culture. There was even a shifting of the criteria for faculty selection. By the early 1990s, Cedarville professors were putting themselves publicly on record for their (belated) support of the Equal Rights Amendment—legislation that was almost universally opposed by conservative Christians of all sorts.

As Cedarville broadened its appeal, it experienced growing tensions with Regular Baptists. These tensions came to a head when, at the end of Dixon’s tenure, Cedarville formally identified with the Southern Baptist state convention in Ohio. Under the new president, William Brown, the university refused to endorse the Statement of Purpose of the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches, a requirement for partnering institutions. For both these reasons, the GARBC terminated its partnership with Cedarville in 2006.

The divorce was ugly, at least on the Cedarville side. Since the GARBC national conference was held in Michigan that year, Cedarville supporters were transported by busloads to try to overwhelm the vote. At one point some threatened to rush the platform if a particular parliamentary ruling did not go their way. In the end, however, the association had the votes to remove Cedarville from partnership.

Shortly thereafter, scandal erupted on campus as a couple of the most conservative tenured professors were terminated suddenly. Alarmed constituents formed watchdog groups and began to spread word of theological aberrations. Most Cedarville constituents found these charges difficult to believe, but the university continued to show signs of movement away from its fundamentalist roots. In an attempt to reassure conservatives, in 2011 the university adopted white papers dealing with creation, with justification, and with divine omniscience.

The situation, however, continued to deteriorate. In 2012, a professor was fired for teaching that the opening chapters of Genesis were non-historical. Then two philosophy professors published that they could not vote Republican since they supported universal health care, decreased defense spending, increased spending on social programs, and economic redistribution. Consequently, the question was no longer whether Cedarville should be considered a fundamentalist institution, but whether it should even be considered a conservative one.

In response, the board placed the philosophy major under review and indicated its intention to end the program. In October, President Brown tendered his resignation, followed by a key vice president in January 2013—many believed under pressure from the board. In response to concerns that Cedarville might be moving in a fundamentalist direction, board chairman Lorne Sharnberg was quoted as saying that Cedarville “isn’t moving anywhere. We’re staying right where we’ve always been.” Ironically, these are the very words that the Cedarville leadership used to say when it was moving away from fundamentalism.

While these events have been taking place at Cedarville, Faith Baptist Bible College has been facing a difficult decision of its own. The school long ago staked out a position that was traditionally dispensationalist, strongly Baptist, and conservative in its appropriation of contemporary popular culture. It has required its students to become members in churches that share these commitments.

Through the years, one of the congregations that allied itself with Faith was Saylorville Baptist Church. Dozens of students and several staff are members at Saylorville, and in many ways (for example, its commitment to evangelism) Saylorville models values that Faith shares. Over the years, however, Saylorville has adopted an increasingly contemporary ministry, and it has recently dropped the word Baptist from its name. As Saylorville has made these moves, Faith has felt considerable pressure to soften its commitment to its principles and to broaden its appeal.

Decades ago, one of the presidents of Faith Baptist Bible College (David Nettleton) argued that when Christians disagree, they must either limit their message or limit their fellowship. This past week, Faith’s board made the decision to stand by its message and allow its fellowship to shrink. Students and staff will no longer be permitted to join Saylorville Church.

This may represent the hardest decision that the administration and board at Faith has ever made. They are not angry with Saylorville. They love its pastor and its staff, and they believe that Saylorville is in some ways a good model. They are not denouncing the church, but they are separating from it at one level. They are making this move because, if they do not, their principles will be obscured. They are aware that the decision will be costly.

Cedarville and Faith represent opposite approaches to the application of principles in changing situations. Cedarville committed itself to wider influence and was willing to sacrifice principles in order to obtain it. Faith has committed itself to maintain its principles, and it is willing to accept narrower influence in order to uphold them. Both have responded to change, but they have responded in opposite directions.

Granted, sometimes Christians hold mistaken principles that they ought to revise. Simply to abandon principles in favor of increased influence, however, is a devil’s bargain. Once principles have been obscured, they become very difficult to clarify. Both Faith and Cedarville will face some unhappy constituents. Cedarville’s will be unhappy because their school’s position is not clear. Faith’s will be unhappy because their school’s is. The difference is this: no one is attracted to obscurity and uncertainty, but some may be attracted to a clearly stated position when it is consistently maintained.

Christ Jesus Lay in Death’s Strong Bands
Martin Luther (1483-1546), translated by Richard Massie (1800-1887)

Christ Jesus lay in death’s strong bands,
For our offenses given;
But now at God’s right hand he stands
And brings us life from heaven;
Therefore let us joyful be
And sing to God right thankfully
Loud songs of hallelujah. Hallelujah!

It was a strange and dreadful strife
When life and death contended;
The victory remained with life,
The reign of death was ended;
Holy Scripture plainly saith
That death is swallowed up by death,
His sting is lost for ever. Hallelujah!

Here the true Paschal Lamb we see,
Whom God so freely gave us;
He died on the accursed tree—
So strong his love!—to save us.
See, his blood doth mark our door;
Faith points to it, death passes o’er,
And Satan cannot harm us. Hallelujah!

So let us keep the festival
Whereto the Lord invites us;
Christ is himself the Joy of all,
The Sun that warms and lights us.
By his grace he doth impart
Eternal sunshine to the heart;
The night of sin is ended. Hallelujah!

Then let us feast this joyful day
On Christ, the Bread of heaven;
The Word of grace hath purged away
The old and evil leaven.
Christ alone our souls will feed,
He is our meat and drink indeed;
Faith lives upon no other. Hallelujah!


This essay is by Dr. Kevin T. Bauder,  who serves as Research Professor of Systematic Theology at Central Baptist Theological Seminary (Plymouth, MN). Not every professor, student, or alumnus of Central Seminary necessarily agrees with every opinion that it expresses.

Jim
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On conservatives = fundamentalists

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Then two philosophy professors published that they could not vote Republican since they supported universal health care, decreased defense spending, increased spending on social programs, and economic redistribution. Consequently, the question was no longer whether Cedarville should be considered a fundamentalist institution, but whether it should even be considered a conservative one.

 

I guess one  cannot be a Democrat and a Fundamentalist!

By the way I am for decreased defense spending: I think that France, England, Germany, Japan and South Korea should have increased defense spending so that the US does not need to defend them! See a recent WSJ article entitled Why France  Can't Fight

Quote:
On paper France has 230,000 men and women in uniform, but only 30,000 are estimated to be deployable on six months notice.

France does spend money on modern weaponry: Since 2009, one of the few pieces of equipment that saw an upward revision in planned inventory through 2014 is Dassault's twin-engine Rafale fighter jet, of which France already has more than 70, with plans for nearly 160 more.

But militaries need the not-so-sexy stuff, too, and here Paris has been shortchanging its soldiers for years. French infantrymen must now deploy with barely half the number of logistical transport vehicles the military had planned four years ago. French diplomats spent the first week of the Malian intervention haggling with the U.S., Canada and Britain for American-made C-17s to transport soldiers and gear to Mali.

George Will has recently addressed the issue - The death of NATO?

Quote:
NATO's secretary-general, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, recently warned that "at the current pace of cuts," it is hard to see how in the future "Europe could maintain enough military capabilities to sustain" military operations such as those under way in Libya.

Actually, Europe could not sustain them today; only U.S. munitions, intelligence, refueling and other assets keep the Libyan operations going.

.....

Since the Cold War's end, the combined GDP of NATO's European members has grown 55 percent, yet their defense spending has declined almost 20 percent. Twenty years ago, those nations provided 33 percent of the alliance's defense spending; today, they provide 21 percent.

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Pastor Shane Belding
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Taking a hard look at ourselves

The trajectory which you observed in Cedarville could be applied to several of our present conservative colleges and seminaries. The move to restrict authentic fundamentalism to historic fundamentalism, the hesitancy to separate over "secondary doctirnes" and the emphasis of the doctrine of the gospel (soteriology) over a doxological (the glory of God) purpose all contribute to our younger generation being susceptible to becoming the next "conservative" evangelicals. May God give us wisdom to discern this slide to compromise in our own institutions, and churches. Ideas do have consequences.

 

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Paul J. Scharf
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Call to Faith alumni

Regardless of whether you agree with Faith's decision in this case, I'm glad to see Dr. Bauder present the school in a positive light, and in a fuller context. Faith has much to offer, but is not an institution that is given to self-promotion. I think the thread on the related news item here on SharperIron is the most attention I have ever seen the school get on this site.

Unfortunately, that thread contains comments from some with little knowledge of Faith who seem willing to judge the school based on this one incident.

I hope this article draws some more informed reaction from Faith alumni and supporters, whatever side of the issue they may be on. Having made a statement on the other thread, I look forward to reading the comments of those with additional knowledge of the situation.

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Faith & Cedarville ... Apples and Oranges

In defense of Cedarville: "As Cedarville broadened its appeal ..."

Mission:

  • Faith is primarily oriented towards preparing young adults for vocational ministry
  • Cedarville is oriented towards preparing young adults for secular careers

Size:

  • If Faith has 300 students (and this number is not clear to me!)
  • Cedarville has 3000+ students

Offerings (both are regionally accredited with North Central Association of Colleges and Schools):

  • Faith has limited academic offerings (and one would expect that with a narrower mission!)
  • Cedarville has broad academic offerings: including engineering, computer science, nursing, Pharmacy, et cetera. Cedarville has fleshed out their offerings in the STEM fields - and Faith does not pretend make those offerings.

I suggest ... appreciate Faith for what it is .. and Cedarville for what it is! Yes Cedarville broadened its appeal, but I suggest that they would not be the kind of University that they have become unless they had made some of these strategic decisions.

 

 

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Chip Van Emmerik
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Pastor Shane Belding

Pastor Shane Belding wrote:
The move to restrict authentic fundamentalism to historic fundamentalism...
I don't understand this statement. Are you saying authentic fundamentalism is somehow greater (larger) than historic fundamentalism? How are these not the same thing?

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Steve Davis
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Authentic?

Pastor Shane Belding wrote:

The trajectory which you observed in Cedarville could be applied to several of our present conservative colleges and seminaries. The move to restrict authentic fundamentalism to historic fundamentalism, the hesitancy to separate over "secondary doctirnes" and the emphasis of the doctrine of the gospel (soteriology) over a doxological (the glory of God) purpose all contribute to our younger generation being susceptible to becoming the next "conservative" evangelicals. May God give us wisdom to discern this slide to compromise in our own institutions, and churches. Ideas do have consequences.

I know next to nothing about either school but I think you are right that ideas have consequences. I’m not sure who represents “authentic fundamentalism” today since all branches claim to be authentic or at least the most faithful. Yet the “hesitancy to separate over ‘secondary doctrines’” (depending how you define them and separation) actually better represents how Christians should relate to each other – separate when biblically mandated, fellowship as broadly as possible with believers committed to the full authority of Scripture, partner with those who more closely reflect your distinctives.
 

When we hold our distinctives with the same certainty with which we hold the fundamentals of the faith then we will practice a greater degree of separation. When we hold our distinctives with conviction but with a lesser degree of certainty (particularly in areas of historical divergence) we can enjoy genuine fellowship and express biblical unity. For example, I believe that believer’s baptism by immersion best reflects what the New Testament teaches and the apostles and early church practiced. Yet I am more convinced about the subject of baptism than the mode. And I wasn’t always exposed fairly to other views during some of my training. It took taking Church & Sacraments with Sinclair Ferguson at RTS to at least admit that others have compelling arguments for their positions. I still don’t buy into the position but I won’t separate from those who differ (although full partnership in some endeavors wouldn’t work). So how these schools see their mission and understand what and how much needs to be distinctively emphasized will determine what students and faculty they will attract. It also may determine their viability. May both schools prosper!
 

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I Trust Faith

Just over a year and half ago, I was at Faith for a high school tournament.  What I experienced was impressive. 

The students were both friendly and helpful.  The staff I found to be extremely interested in our needs and concerns.

The chapel services were outstanding.  I could think I were at Bob Jones or Maranatha while being in attendance.

The music was very conservative and the preaching totally Biblical.  I came away with a deeper respect and appreciation

for Faith. 

I would NOT hesitate to send my children there today.

 

Susan R
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Ministry training

Would we have this problem if churches had not handed over the training of future ministers to colleges and universities?

Just askin'.

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Jim
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? for Bert Barker

Bert Baker wrote:

Just over a year and half ago, I was at Faith for a high school tournament.  What I experienced was impressive. 

The students were both friendly and helpful.  The staff I found to be extremely interested in our needs and concerns.

The chapel services were outstanding.  I could think I were at Bob Jones or Maranatha while being in attendance.

The music was very conservative and the preaching totally Biblical.  I came away with a deeper respect and appreciation

for Faith. 

I would NOT hesitate to send my children there today.

 

Would you send your young adult there if he aspired to be a chemist? (or another one of the majors Cedarville offers but Faith does not)

I say this because if one wants to be a chemist, 4 years at Faith really will not advance a young adult in that field of endeavor! I would never say that one's education dollars are wasted but to become a chemist will entail many more years and dollars after the Faith.edu education.

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Kevin T. Bauder
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Let's keep our eye on the ball

Jim,

You appear to be confusing two issues. One is the question of whether a Christian college can offer a curriculum that is broader than biblical studies or ministry training. Is there a place for a Christian university or liberal arts college? Your answer seems to be yes, and I agree with you in that answer. Separatist fundamentalism has fine example of both, the best-known being Bob Jones University. My brother is a graduate of BJU, and I believe that he received above-average preparation for his vocation (I also have two siblings who attended Cedarville, and I pastored a church that encouraged its young people to consider Cedarville). The breadth of the curriculum is simply not the issue.

The other issue has to do with doctrinal and ecclesiastical breadth. Dixon wanted a big university instead of a little liberal arts college. The Regular Baptist movement could not give him the students and money that he needed, so he began looking for a broader ecclesiastical base upon which to build. By itself, that is not necessarily a problem--all of the Regular Baptist institutions must reach beyond the GARBC, The question is, In which direction do they reach?

Cedarville has consistently reached toward its left. In order to appeal to those on the left, it had to broaden its commitments, connections, and philosophy in that direction. What Cedarville is facing now is that consequence of that broadening. Any movement toward its right is likely to cost it support from those to whom it has sought to appeal. The university cannot retreat very far, because it needs all 3,000 of those students to keep financing its operations.

Can a person be a Democrat and a fundamentalist? Not intelligently, no. To put it more broadly, a thoughtful person cannot simultaneously be a liberal and a conservative--and the connection between social/political and theological/ecclesiastical liberalism (or conservatism) is closer than some people seem to think. Given its current posture, Cedarville is not a consistently conservative institution.

All other things being equal, students who attend Cedarville can learn to be good chemists. I am not convinced, however, that they will learn to be good Christians. I would sooner have my child in a Catholic university or a state school than in Cedarville University.

Kevin

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Purpose of university

All other things being equal, students who attend Cedarville can learn to be good chemists. I am not convinced, however, that they will learn to be good Christians.

This should never be, IMO, the purpose for attending any university or seminary. This is a function best served by parents, and sans parents, one's church. 

Which hearkens back to my earlier question...

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Jim
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@Kevin

I agree with you on the Democrat point

Re this: "All other things being equal, students who attend Cedarville can learn to be good chemists. I am not convinced, however, that they will learn to be good Christians. I would sooner have my child in a Catholic university or a state school than in Cedarville University."

Or is it the job of the church to make people "good Christians"?!

I have no skin in this game ... University of Cincinnati '71

 

 

 

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"All other things being

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All other things being equal, students who attend Cedarville can learn to be good chemists. I am not convinced, however, that they will learn to be good Christians. I would sooner have my child in a Catholic university or a state school than in Cedarville University.

I would say this is true of "fundamentalist" colleges like PCC as well, but for different reasons.

Kevin T. Bauder
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And the alternative is?

Susan,

Ministers have been trained in colleges and universities since the Middle Ages. For a thousand years before that, they were trained (often badly) by monasteries. Before that, no one needed to teach them Koine, because they all spoke it.

Other than settling for an ignorant ministry, what do you see as an alternative to colleges and universities?

Kevin

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Well...

Jim,

It is certainly not the job of avowedly Christian, evangelical institutions of higher learning to make people worse Christians.

If the mission of these institutions has no connection at all to fostering biblical Christianity, then why bother with them? Close their doors--we will be none the poorer.

Kevin

Jim
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Majors at Faith and "what's a girl to do?"

Majors at Faith:

  1. Administrative Assistant Major (A.A., B.S.)
  2. Assistant Pastor Major (B.S.)
  3. Biblical Studies Major (A.A., B.S., B.A.)
  4. Christian School Education Major (B.S.)
  5. Local Church Ministries Major (B.S.)
  6. Missions and Evangelism Major (A.A., B.S., B.A.)
  7. Music Ministries Major (B.S.)
  8. Pastoral Major (B.S., B.A.)

Really, the only majors females will likely pursue are #’s 1, 4, & 7 above. Biblical studies might appeal to some…..but that’s generally a male-dominated major too. (And # 7 would likely be only for a music teacher, since Minister of Music wouldn’t be an option in most baptist chuches.) Plus, the only major for # 4 at the secondary-teaching level is in English education. So anyone wishing to be, say, a high school Science or Math teacher probably needs to look elsewhere. So unless female students are interested in training to be administrative assistants or limited types of teachers, there really isn’t much in the way of choices for them.

 

 

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Demoblicans

Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

Can a person be a Democrat and a fundamentalist? Not intelligently, no.

Kevin (and Jim too since he agrees with you on this)

I really got a kick out of this since I’m a registered Democrat. I knew there was another reason why I couldn’t be a Fundamentalist :-) . In my defense, living in West Philly, I would never get to vote in local primaries as a Republican because there are no elected Republicans in this part of the city called “left of center.”  If I lived in Northeast Philly where most of the Republicans are concentrated, I might be a Republican. And in the national primaries I can vote for the Democrat I would most like to see face the Republican. And I thought this was intelligent Smile .

 

Steve

 

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Sorry I'm not convinced

Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

Jim,

It is certainly not the job of avowedly Christian, evangelical institutions of higher learning to make people worse Christians.

If the mission of these institutions has no connection at all to fostering biblical Christianity, then why bother with them? Close their doors--we will be none the poorer.

Kevin

  • I'm not convinced that Cedarville makes students worse Christians AND
  • I am not an advocate of "better off that their doors are closed". I actually find your comment uncharitable
  • I value Cedarville while recognizing that it is not a perfect school.
  • Not to diss another school by name, but I think to call oneself a University while not offering the STEM offerings is disingenuous

As for us. We (my wife and I) did not come from even middle class backgrounds. We had to earn and pay our own way through colleges (my wife at St Pete Junior College and later at Florida State. Me from the U of Cincinnati). I am shocked by the cost of private education and what is being offered by Christian institutions: the lack of or poor accreditation, and the paltry offerings (when these kids graduate and enter probably the most difficult job market in 80 years!).

 

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@Steve Davis re Democrats

I am a registered Republican. I've voted for some Democrats ... recently for State Senator Senator Bonoff (Minnesota). She is a fiscal conservative. She was kind enough to meet with me for coffee and she responds to my emails. I appreciate her.

 

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Worth a read before one borrows $$ for college

My Valuable, Cheap College Degree

 

Two of my children graduated from college debt free:

  • Child # 1:

    • Started working at pizza place at age 14. At 16 worked as barista at Caribou coffee (until college graduation)
    • Participated in Minnesota's Post-Secondary Enrollment Option
    • Worked her entire way through college while attending state school full time.
    • By the way ... a barista is hard work: on feet the entire time, opening store at 5:00 a.m. or closing it at 11:00 p.m.. Clothing and shoes get soaked with coffee
  • Child # 2:

    • Volunteered for the USMC after HS (9/11 was while he was in combat training)
    • Served in Iraq
    • 2 years of community college while working full time 2nd shift in bank operations
    • Joined the MN National Guard after 6 years in the Marines\
    • GI bill helped fund all
    • University of Minnesota - graduated May 2012 with a degree in engineering (worked full time for 3 of 4 semesters. Several semesters he worked multiple jobs)

Neither took out student loans .... neither received significant financial help from their parents ... both graduated debt free.

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Susan R
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Ministry training

Kevin T. Bauder wrote:
Susan,

Ministers have been trained in colleges and universities since the Middle Ages. For a thousand years before that, they were trained (often badly) by monasteries. Before that, no one needed to teach them Koine, because they all spoke it.

Other than settling for an ignorant ministry, what do you see as an alternative to colleges and universities?

Kevin

"We've done it this way for thousands of years" doesn't tell me why universities are more Scriptural, appropriate, or superior to the local church for the training of ministers. Where does the Biblical authority lie for training and approving men for ministry?

University training also doesn't inoculate its grads from ignorance, or guarantee congregations a qualified minister as per 1 Tim. 3, so the the idea that the only alternative to ignorant ministry is college is not entirely accurate. 

IMO, one of the church's safeguards against predators (of all stripes) is the close knit mentoring relationship that develops between the trainer and trainee, as well as the laying on of hands of the elders of the church. I think the traditional classroom may give us many learned men, but it doesn't give us better ministers.

We've followed the world into the assembly line-conveyor belt method of educating young people, thinking of it as more efficient because we can do so much more for so many in a shorter amount of time. But where's quality control? Wasn't there a comment in another thread about seminary diplomas being used as passports into ministry positions, without so much as a baggage search?

How many controversial issues have we discussed here over the years that involve tension between churches and seminaries? And every time I ask myself the same questions. 

I think Jim has a point about the difference between these two schools. I live in Beavercreek, within spittin' distance of Cedarville, Some of our current (as in the church we are currently visiting) church leaders/teachers have attended or graduated from CU, many students attend the church, and my husband often does business with the school (he works for an equipment rental company) as well as many churches of different denominations in the area. The school has a good reputation in our community, but no one thinks of it in terms of primarily producing ministers. It is a good place to go to be around fellow Christians, have Christian professors, and also get a decent education. 

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Really?

Jim,

I am astonished to read that you find my comment uncharitable. Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain why.

You asked, "Or is it the job of the church to make people "good Christians"?!"

My answer is that Christian institutions of higher learning have no reason to exist if not to foster biblical Christiainity. Surely we don't think that Cedarville or Bob Jones does a better job teaching chemistry than MIT or A&M. The reason that we want schools like that is precisely because of their Christian commitments and nurture. If they can't give us that, then they may as well close--we don't need them.

How is this uncharitable?

Kevin

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Chip Van Emmerik

Chip Van Emmerik wrote:

Pastor Shane Belding wrote:
The move to restrict authentic fundamentalism to historic fundamentalism...
I don't understand this statement. Are you saying authentic fundamentalism is somehow greater (larger) than historic fundamentalism? How are these not the same thing?

The distinction I am making is historic fundamentalism was a movement in its infancy. Fundamentalism grew beyond separation only over the fundamentals. It began as a interdenominational movement and then broke off into more defined groups that saw the need to take separation beyond the fundamentals. The younger generation appears to  deem this a deviance from the scriptures were as I do not. Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism were not separate groups in the infancy stage but as the doctrine of separation was exercised in the real world of ecclesiastical associations it became evident and necessary to broaden the scope of the doctrines which to separate over. The debate as to how many doctrines require ecclesiastical separation is difficult and varied according to each individual church and institution but is necessary to accurately apply the doctrine of separation. Approaching the topic of separation with the mindset that older was somehow purer is naive.  Authentic fundamentalism ,whatever that is, well at least embrace that the bible calls for separation / limited fellowship (semantics) for more than just the fundamentals of the faith.

 

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What is a university?

"Not to diss another school by name, but I think to call oneself a University while not offering the STEM offerings is disingenuous"

From a technical standpoint, does one have to have STEM offerings to be technically called a university? If not, "disingenuous" is probably an improper term.

Just like any school, folks need to be careful what they major in at that school. Even at the University of Minnesota I'm sure there are unemployed graduates because of the major they picked.

 

As to Susan's point. I don't think she is saying that each church needs to be giving out theology degrees for the pastorate. I think her point is that most fundamental churches' sole blueprint to educate their young lay people is to ship them off to Bible college. There are two problems with that:

1) The expense for private liberal arts college is pretty steep nowadays, I know, I know, "I had to work my way through school". But they aren't making that much more per hour than you did 20-30 years ago and their college costs have quintupled.

2) Most of the time when young people go off to college, they don't come back to their home church. Many just hang around the college town after graduation.

Before folks went to college, parents and churches did a better job of teaching Bible truths to their young folks .
 We have become a bit lazy using Christian colleges as our backstop.

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My question is, can one

My question is, can one intelligently be a fundamentalist and still be a Democrat or Republican?

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One last comment on uncharitable and then ...

One last comment on  "uncharitable" and then I will be willing to discuss with you when we connect at church.

I read your comment that you wished Cedarville closed. Perhaps you were using hyperbole or I misunderstood you

I can list several colleges that I think are basically educational charades ... to name one Hyles Anderson. But I don't wish them closed.

 

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The conservative wing of the

The conservative wing of the Republican party still stands for traditional values.  That has all but vanished in the Democratic party in more recent elections.  One could simply be an independent and vote for the individual.  Nothing wrong with that in my mind.  However, in a practical way either a republican or a democrat will be in the white house and the congress in the majority of cases.

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Steve Davis "authentic" ?

 

 

 

 

Steve,

you state  

"When we hold our distinctives with the same certainty with which we hold the fundamentals of the faith then we will practice a greater degree of separation. When we hold our distinctives with conviction but with a lesser degree of certainty (particularly in areas of historical divergence) we can enjoy genuine fellowship and express biblical unity."

I agree but would add that in these areas it is not as simple as they are right and  I am right because we are convinced in our minds having researched it. In the doctrines of dispensationalism or covenentalism either we are right or wrong. In the mode of baptism it does not go multiple ways. The concern I have is that the younger generation is getting the impression (because of post modernity) that the scriptures can be approach in a non absolutest way. There is one meaning God intended and we are bound to seek that out and to teach it with passion and conviction. We are also ,as you point out, to recognize there are definitely different degrees of certainty due to our fallibility and the limited scriptures on certain subjects. When we deal with them, honesty demands, that we teach with humility and clarity on the degree of certainty that the bible allows. I also would like to highlight that this is not to say that all scriptures bears the same weight. The roles of husband and wife in scriptures is clear but does not bear the same weight on the gospel as the doctrine of Christ.

How does this apply to the discussion at hand?    Faith made a call of separation based on teachings/ instruction of the scriptures that are not in the fundamentals area but that is not to say they have no grounds for separation. 

 

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You have not answered my question.

Susan,

While it may be true that higher education is not a complete inoculation against ignorance, it is at least some pretty decent prophylaxis--if it is gained in an institution that actually values learning.

In principle, the local church is responsible for the preparation of its ministers. Indeed, a future pastor cannot get the necessary hands-on training in any other environment. Churches, however, are not prepared to provide all of the equipment that a minister should acquire.

At minimum, a pastor-bishop-elder needs to have mastered the tools of thought. The mission of the church, however, does not include instruction in grammar, rhetoric, and dialectic. Furthermore, most homes are ill-prepared to inculcate these skills. Mastery of the liberal arts is the single most important aspect of baccalaureate education (which is why the graduate receives a bachelor of arts). So important is it to preparation for ministry that the Puritans (who were strongly committed to local church mentoring) made it their business to establish colleges as quickly as they could.

Furthermore, a good pastor must possess significant exegetical skill. He must be able to function in the biblical languages. He must have a broad and sound understanding of the structure of the text of Scripture, and, increasingly, of the critical issues related to the biblical text. Lacking these skills, a minister will never be more than an echo.

If they are to minister well, pastors must also possess at least a modicum of theological sophistication. They must understand why they believe what they believe. They must perceive how the various components of the system of faith relate to one another and how they relate to lived Christianity. What is more, if a pastor is going to understand the doctrines that he says he believes, he also needs to know how those doctrines have been developed in the confrontation with error. For this reason and others, he needs a fair grasp of history.

This description does not begin to address all the needs of ministry. Today's pastor has to be able to think about cultural issues. He has to be able to counsel increasingly-common problems that were virtually never encountered a generation ago. He has to be able to parry spiritual threats on the left hand and the right. We should not expect him to learn these things ad hoc, any more than we expect airline pilots to learn to fly jumbo jets by the seat of their pants.

What I am suggestion is that, contrary to some understandings of the ministry, a pastor ought to be a learned man. He will not gain his learning by accident. It requires concentrated, rigorous, sustained instruction. I do not know of a single church in which the pastoral staff is equipped to offer this kind of learning. The teachers must master these disciplines at a far higher level than their students.

I think I'm a modestly bright person who has managed to get a halfway decent education. Nevertheless, I could never give a young man all of the preparation that he needed for ministry. If I were his only teacher, he would be severely shortchanged. I don't know of anyone who could do that job. It takes a team of teachers who are largely devoted to that task.

Can you think of a single church that is in a position to do this? The closest we come is churches like Fourth, Inter City, or Calvary, churches that have employed teachers who function along side the pastoral staff. These are local churches that operate seminaries, for the precise reason that, if their pastors had to teach all of the skills personally, they would never be able to provide the pastoring that the congregation needs.

But the seminaries rely upon students who have already mastered certain intellectual skills. That is why we require a bachelor's degree in order to enter the program. Nobody I know of has received all the necessary learning from home schooling. Nobody I know of has received it from their church (even if their church had a school). Nor should they. God lays upon parents the duty to rear their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and He lays upon churches the responsibility to make disciples, but He nowhere holds them accountable for personally providing all the education that their children or members might require. That takes something like a college or a university. You can tear off the label if you'd like, but you'll still end up with some comparable institution and program.

It's not a question of either-or. Both universities and local churches are essential to training ministers (so are seminaries). We tried taking a shortcut a century ago with the Bible Institute movement. We have never really recovered. So, yes, there are specific reasons for which universities or comparable institutions are both appropriate and superior to the local church for certain aspects of preparation for ministry.

Kevin

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On college costs and more

Barry L. wrote:
The expense for private liberal arts college is pretty steep nowadays, I know, I know, "I had to work my way through school". But they aren't making that much more per hour than you did 20-30 years ago and their college costs have quintupled.

There's been a lot written of late as to why college costs are inflating faster than the economy as as whole.

On: Yes it was easier 40 years ago:

  • Yes ... college cost less
  • Yes ... there were manufacturing jobs and now that has somewhat dried up (I worked at a chemical company for 4 years while I was in college. It's still there.
  • Yes ... things cost less (one could buy a new VW Bug for $ 2,000)
  • No .... wages were much less ... $ 1.25 per hour
  • My own childrens' experience is contemporary.

On: The definition of University:

  • There perhaps is no authoritative definition of "University" but generally it means "a collection of colleges" (MW- think of of the word "universal"). To re-brand oneself from a Bible college to a University without really offering a broad spectrum of educational options is in my view disingenuous. If we disagree we will just have to leave it there.
  • And my original point was that Cedarville has offerings that Faith does not.

How to do a real disservice to our young people:

  • Guilt and group think them into thinking that they have to go to the school(s) their pastor or youth pastor directs them to!
  • Thinking the purpose of the schools is to finish them as Christians
  • Convincing them that their best option for a Christian spouse is at a Bible college
  • Ignoring the reality that regional accreditation matters
  • Laden them (or jointly they and their parents) with debt
  • Let them enter the job market after 4 years without an education that will provide them with a job
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Ministry training

I agree with Kevin,

  • I think that seminary is essential for Pastoral training
  • But I'm not so sure that any undergraduate would suffice prior to seminary
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Questions

So I'm not prepared yet to make final statements until I have a few more private conversations. While I wait to complete those I think a few questions here are fair:

1. Which is more consistent with the practice and spirit of the teachings of Christ and the pattern of the NT Church - to withhold official partnership from a ministry even thought the only official stated reason for separation is the lack of a denominational tag? (some here will say "yes" some will say "no")

2. Is this institutional leadership or rebellion? (In other words do you serve the churches or do the churches serve you? You are a Baptist institution right? So which churches influence your decision-making? I'm assuming board members represent significant constituency that in a sense you are responsible too?)

3. So ..... did the board agree with this, or is this a move by the administration without board involvement? 

4. If the Board agrees with this is that saying something about your attitude toward the GARBC in general and specifically the authority of the council of 18? (especially in light of the recent decision by the GARBC council of 18 to allow churches GARBC status who do not have the word Baptist in their title).

5. The fact that you are making this decision now and it comes on the heals of the GARBC decision - are you making a statement about (further) antagonism towards the national GARBC?

6. Do you believe the majority of your constituency agree with the "Baptist only" policy? Would it matter if you believed the majority of your constituency disagreed with the policy?

7. Are you purposefully trying to separate yourself from the main of the GARBC?

8. What is your view towards the "Baptist-Bride" or "Landmarkest" cults in this country?

So without making any statements as to my personal opinion here - these might be a few of the questions one might ask.

Straight Ahead!

jt

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Not at all!

Jim,

By no means do I wish for Cedarville to close. What I wish is for Cedarville to be reformed. With a small "r".

In fact, I feel such goodwill toward Cedarville University that I here and now offer to assume the presidency and to give the school the guidance that it needs in order to return to a fully biblical position. I will be able to assume my duties at the beginning of the academic year in July.

(I have a better chance of winning the lottery.)

Kevin

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Dr. Bauder

Is the procedure you describe what Paul did with Timothy and Titus? Was one of the requirements of ministry to "master the tools of thought" and receive "instruction in grammar, rhetoric, and dialectic"? It makes me ask "When is good enough, good enough?" IOW, at what point is one 'fully equipped' for ministry?

I say "Never", for obvious reasons, at least they are obvious to me. That doesn't mean there isn't a standard, but I think we have to be careful about going too far outside a Biblical standard.

I agree that "a good pastor must possess significant exegetical skill. He must be able to function in the biblical languages. He must have a broad and sound understanding of the structure of the text of Scripture, and, increasingly, of the critical issues related to the biblical text.

I also agree that "They must understand why they believe what they believe. They must perceive how the various components of the system of faith relate to one another and how they relate to lived Christianity.... he also needs to know how those doctrines have been developed in the confrontation with error... he needs a fair grasp of history."

What I don't understand is why, having received training from the hands and minds of qualified men, these men are unable to 'duplicate' themselves in the young men in their churches who desire to be ministers.  

Before the printing press, the only way to communicate knowledge was orally and with rare and precious writing on fairly fragile parchments/papyrus etc... With the availability of books for the masses, we long ago stopped being confined to this method of communicating and learning. So men who wish to become educated do not have to gather en masse in order to acquire knowledge from 'the best theological minds'. 

We also seem to operate as if every man who desires to be a minister should immediately be granted training thereto. Don't get me wrong- I think every person should become as learned in the Word as they possibly can with every means at their disposal. But to train specifically for ministry? Seminaries are rubber stamping hundreds of young men who are simply not qualified to pastor, for various reasons. They may have obeyed the rules and been on the honor roll every semester, and that's just peachy. Who grades them on the fruits of the Spirit? Where are the checks and balances if young men are training outside of a local church?

For just a minute, let's pretend that every pastor in America has 2 or 3 young men in their church who 1) desire to be ministers 2) continually exhibit the qualifications- why is this seen as an insurmountable task? The pastor shouldn't be the only person in a church qualified to provide such training. Aren't the faithful men of the church able to contribute to the process? 

Not to be a reductionist, but are we saying that 1) pastors cannot duplicate themselves 2) there aren't enough mature, faithful men in the average church to train the young men in their midst with all the means we have at our disposal?

The command is to train as one has been trained. (2 Tim. 2:2) I'm not arguing for the immediate dismantling of all seminaries everywhere in the universe. I do believe, however, that to a large degree the church has yet again abdicated a responsibility given primarily to the local body. Thus we have all these strange and awkward tensions that cause division and confusion, not to mention a veritable army of schmoes who have the moral fiber of a Fruit Roll-Up and couldn't light a theological candle with a blowtorch- but they have a seminary degree, by George.

Excuse me, I typed that with my cynical hand. 

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Response to Susan

Susan R wrote:

What I don't understand is why, having received training from the hands and minds of qualified men, these men are unable to 'duplicate' themselves in the young men in their churches who desire to be ministers.  

Susan,

Let me ask in return, would your local family physician -- while maintaining his current practice -- have time and opportunity to train two or three young docs for that same role, while also perhaps training a young heart surgeon in his spare time?

Or is ministry not on this same level because, "It's just for church..."?

Obviously, the model you are suggesting would presume that the pastor in question would start out by being an A+ student in every discipline. Even then, since he could not possibly keep up with "the literature," his students would just be parroting the information he had learned in whatever classes he took X number of years ago...

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What I don't understand is

What I don't understand is why, having received training from the hands and minds of qualified men, these men are unable to 'duplicate' themselves in the young men in their churches who desire to be ministers.  

Because for one reason, being "able to function in the biblical languages" is a "fer piece" (original language for some) from being able to teach someone else how to function in the biblical language. Not to mention the time necessary to preach 2-4 times a week (using biblical languages), perform the administrative functions of the church, plan, pray, shepherd, and the like, doesn't leave the requisite time to teach others how to use the biblical languages. It quite often doesn't leave much time to use them yourself. 

There is a lot that pastors "on the job" can teach young hopeful pastors. In fact, there is probably some that only pastors on the job can teach young hopeful pastors. A guy who has spent 10-20 years in the classroom may not be the best equipped to teach how to sit beside the bed of a dying woman with her family surrounding the bed. Knowing how to parse Greek or Hebrew won't help a lot there. A church history prof may know a lot but may not be able to give help on how to navigate the differing views in a deacon's meeting. Or how to move someone out of teaching role without having them leave the church. (In fact, does anyone know how to do that?)

But alas, we are probably a bit off topic.

Kevin, wasn't this move by Cedarville a move (however slight) back towards the right? I read some people complaining about the fundamentalist tendencies, and I didn't get the impression they meant that you were next in line for the presidency. If I recall correctly, several times over the past decade there were a sort of upheaval at Cedarville. Can you comment more intelligently on that? (Not more intelligently than your recent post, but more intelligently than me, with my limited knowledge.)

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Kevin T. Bauder wrote: In

Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

In fact, I feel such goodwill toward Cedarville University that I here and now offer to assume the presidency and to give the school the guidance that it needs in order to return to a fully biblical position. I will be able to assume my duties at the beginning of the academic year in July.

(I have a better chance of winning the lottery.)

I think Lou Martuneac would have won a different kind of lottery if that took place... Laughing out loud

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Kevin T. Bauder

Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

Susan,

Ministers have been trained in colleges and universities since the Middle Ages. For a thousand years before that, they were trained (often badly) by monasteries. Before that, no one needed to teach them Koine, because they all spoke it.

Other than settling for an ignorant ministry, what do you see as an alternative to colleges and universities?

Kevin

I am shocked at the brazen snobbery of this idea.  I know you work for a school that needs young preachers to buy their credibility in certain circles, but wow.  Your elitism smacks of such arrogance.  Check yourself Kevin.

Did John Bunyan settle for an ignorant ministry?  I will go out on a limb and say his ignorant ministry was used beyond your imagination.

You want an alternative to a college and university?  How about the church, the institution God actually set up to propagate His word.

Eph 4:11-12

And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,

If pastors aren't training people in the work of ministry, they are failing.

Churches outsourcing their responsibilities to schools is such a sad commentary on the church.  On a related note, every time a church has to go outside of itself for their next pastor, they are proving their own failure at training up men as elders.

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Jim wrote: I agree with

Jim wrote:

I agree with Kevin,

  • I think that seminary is essential for Pastoral training
  • But I'm not so sure that any undergraduate would suffice prior to seminary

You say this Jim based on what biblical evidence?  If only a seminary can fulfill such functions, then the church is beyond hope and has already failed.  So much for advancing the church.  Certain people have buried it and erected another structure.

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The complaints by some that a

The complaints by some that a pastor just doesn't have the time to accomplish his biblical mandate is a cop out.  God knows exactly how much time is in the day and what a pastor is to accomplish with it.  The problem is that so many opt for the single pastor model and then complain about a lack of time.  If they would follow the NT pattern of plural elders (no church is ever said to have only one elder), then the time argument would be eliminated and no obstacle would exist to do their job.  Alas, fidelity to truth is not popular.

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The dynamics of teaching

Having taught in various capacities, I think the assumption that one must be physically present during much of the process is strange. But then I don't view teaching as the filling of a bucket from my own personal stock either. As a homeschooler, I've coached my kids to be self-motivated and self-directed. I provide them with quality resources, and they do most of the work themselves. I have one kid learning the piano, two learning the guitar, and the only think I can do on a musical instrument is play the theme to My Three Sons on the clarinet. I also provide them with opportunities to practice what they've learned with a bit of guidance, and with the cooperation of others in areas of specialized knowledge. 

I don't see the medical profession as an apt comparison, (although there is that thing called an internship) especially when I'm not saying that seminaries shouldn't exist at all, but that 4-6 years spent in classrooms under several professors who may have no idea how many of the young men in their classrooms are actually qualified to be ministers, and for whom they seem to neither bear nor require accountability or responsibility doesn't exactly resonate with sound doctrine in and of itself. I also find seminaries founded and acting outside the authority of the local church, or a seminary superseding the authority of the local church, as... I think the technical term is wonky.

And I still haven't heard a 'Biblical' argument for the necessity or superiority of the seminary as opposed to mentoring by pastors and elders in a local church. 

Obviously, the model you are suggesting would presume that the pastor in question would start out by being an A+ student in every discipline. Even then, since he could not possibly keep up with "the literature," his students would just be parroting the information he had learned in whatever classes he took X number of years ago...

I could have SO much fun with that paragraph. 

Bro. Larry- You point out one of the most important reasons that seminary education can only take one so far on the path of ministry, and IMO it can never replace time spent at the side of good pastor.

I have great respect for learned men and for a depth of knowledge acquired by intense studying, but isn't it interesting that the qualifications for ministry in Scripture focus on character issues and not education? That the ministry training relationships described in detail in Scripture are those of under-the-wing student/mentor? 

As for Cedarville, there is quite a bit of speculation going on about what various events actually mean, and they've requested that folks don't try to read too much into this and that. But let's face it- schools have a bottom line, and decisions will be made that are not solely concerned with Scriptural grounds, but with an eye on organizational policies and legalities and red tape and balance-carried-forward column. Or these schools wouldn't exist. 

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I am shocked at the brazen

I am shocked at the brazen snobbery of this idea. 

Unfortunately, we are not shocked at your language.

The complaints by some that a pastor just doesn't have the time to accomplish his biblical mandate is a cop out.  God knows exactly how much time is in the day and what a pastor is to accomplish with it.  The problem is that so many opt for the single pastor model and then complain about a lack of time.  If they would follow the NT pattern of plural elders (no church is ever said to have only one elder), then the time argument would be eliminated and no obstacle would exist to do their job.  Alas, fidelity to truth is not popular.

First, time is not the only reason. Expertise is another, probably more primary, reason.

Second, many seminaries are functions of a local church (such as Detroit), and carry out these things in this way.

Third, the "single pastor model" has already been solidly established as an acceptable (though perhaps not ideal) model. To say that no church is every said to have only one elder is not really to say much at all, since the number of examples is small, and there is no clear evidence about how elders worked in church designated by cities. So while plurality may be good and even preferable, it not mandated by the Bible, as we can see by reading the Bible and noticing the lack of mandate for it.

Fourth, this has nothing to do with fidelity to the truth. But since you bring it up, 1 Tim 5:1 might be a verse worth some time in meditation.

 

 

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Admittedly not based on biblical evidence

James K wrote:

Jim wrote:

I agree with Kevin,

  • I think that seminary is essential for Pastoral training
  • But I'm not so sure that any undergraduate would suffice prior to seminary

You say this Jim based on what biblical evidence?  If only a seminary can fulfill such functions, then the church is beyond hope and has already failed.  So much for advancing the church.  Certain people have buried it and erected another structure.

James K., my view is not based on biblical evidence and it has flaws.

I see that Pastors need (by way of training):

  • Sufficient education (and I am thinking beyond a Bachelor's degree) to prove their academic mettle. Why: Because, at least in the US, approximately 30% have a Bachelor's degree.
  • Ability and training in the languages. Greek the very least. Many secular colleges also offer Greek.
  • Training in history broadly and Church history specifically
  • Ecclesiastical training with an emphasis on the doctrinal convictions of one's denomination
  • Age ... (comes with time). I have a view that few 28 year olds are hardly "elders". Yes we are not to "despise [their] youth" but honestly many men in their late 20's are still into video games and other foolish things. I won't follow a goofy guy!
  • Experience: And I don't mean a church internship. I mean life-experience: Marriage ... parenting ... paying bills ... balancing a budget ... fender-benders ... the flu ... etc ...
  • Apprenticeship: One on one working with pastors and deacons
  • Having a trade of some kind would be helpful for many men because while no one aspires to be bi-vocational, having to find a job to pay bills often happens
  • Seminary fails in these areas: Aging, experience, and apprenticeship. Additionally a seminary degree does not make one a leader. Seminary can't do that. One failure of the seminary system is that they think they can make the man ... but they can only make the academic-man!
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Bro. Larry- You point out one

Bro. Larry- You point out one of the most important reasons that seminary education can only take one so far on the path of ministry, and IMO it can never replace time spent at the side of good pastor.

I completely agree. I don't think we should cast it as either/or.

I have great respect for learned men and for a depth of knowledge acquired by intense studying, but isn't it interesting that the qualifications for ministry in Scripture focus on character issues and not education? That the ministry training relationships described in detail in Scripture are those of under-the-wing student/mentor?

I am not sure that "character vs. education" is a biblical dichotomy. The NT seems to indicate both. 1 Tim talks about studying to be approved, study so that your profiting may appear to all, being able to teach (which is both skill and knowledge), etc. So both are necessary.

As far as self-directed vs. physically present, again, probably both/and is the way to go. I doubt most people will become proficient in biblical languages simply by reading a text. Some may. But most will not. Plus, one of the greatest benefits of education (which is why I don't like distance ed) is the interpersonal relationships that develop both in the classroom, the library, the lounge, the hallways, etc. So yes, one can learn a lot of his own, but that book will never make a phone call to check on you. It won't cry with  you, or rejoice. And it won't tell you you got something wrong. And it won't tell you what the books that would take you twenty years to read say. But a good seminary prof who has spent twenty or forty years reading them will.

 

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Both/and

I don't have a problem farming out certain areas of specialized knowledge. Even as a home educator, I do that myself with DVDs, online courses, and the occasional tutor. I think the years spend in seminary classrooms, however, as inefficient, and often ineffective, in the sense of practical application and guided practice, and in the sense of verifying other important qualities of ministers, such as the aforementioned 1 Tim. 3 and the fruits of the Spirit. 

And here I was today correcting my son for long sentences with lots of commas. LOL!

 

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To Susan

I tend to find myself in agreement with a lot of what you say, but I really think your views on the need for a Seminary education show a lack of understanding of the pastoral ministry and its requirements.  The pastors that I served under while working at three different churches in various staff roles, both paid and non-paid, were very good men who taught me much about pastoral ministry.  If that is the role that the church should be serving to those going in to vocational ministry then I agree.  My learning experience in each of those situations has somewhat shaped my opinion that an undergraduate degree in any ministerial bachelors is a complete waste of time.  I learned more about ministry working in a church than sitting through waste of time classes at BJU like youth/children's ministry etc.  Also, the amount of Bible Knowledge I had received growing up in a solid church made the bachelor's level Bible classes seem pretty basic.  So far, I know I sound like I am making your point for you.

That being said, however, Seminary was an entirely different matter, and the basic Master of Divinity that should be and almost everywhere outside of IFB circles is considered the basic requirement for pastoral ministry, was an amazing learning experience that gave me the educational base needed to pastor (in my case as a Chaplain).  As I said, my pastors were great men, who I respect, but none of them was equipped with enough knowledge on their own to teach me all I needed to know in the realm of apologetics, hermeneutics, theology, ethics, biblical languages, etc.  I needed all of that educational background to be able to do the same thing that each of them knew how to do, some better than others, which was study the Bible on their own and determine its message and theological positions and teachings and then take that study and be able to effectively translate that into Biblical messages that would build up a church member's knowledge of Christ, knowledge of the Scripture and better enable that Christian to serve in the body of Christ.  It's not as simple as being able to prepare a Bible study or sermon, although every time I preach a sermon the people listening are reaping the benefit of every professor who taught me how to "rightly divide the Word of Truth".  If a pastor or even a group of elders, although most churches are not large enough to have more than a couple paid pastors/elders, were to teach all that Seminary provides, it would become of full time job and actual preaching and teaching of the Word of God to the rest of the church would not happen, not to mention the "pastoral ministry" - hospital visitation, community outreach etc.

While we have formalized the process to conform to an academic standard that has been accepted and changing for hundreds of years, that doesn't mean that it necessarily occur outside of the local church.  As has already been mentioned Detroit Seminary is an extension of a local church, but also has a solid academic standing.  There are plenty of examples you can find where that is not the case, and there are many large seminaries that are not really connected to any particular local church or even denomination.  I personally don't find that to be a problem, but for those who do, there are options.  As a Southern Baptist, I consider my Seminary, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary to be representing and accountable to thousands of local churches who support the Seminary through Cooperative program gifts and vote on the trustees at the Southern Baptist Convention.  I know it is probably not what you had in mind for local church control, but I do not find it unbiblical for a group of local churches, such as the SBC, to have a Seminary that reflects a consensus of doctrine if not a specific church's.

As to the question of unqualified people in Seminary studying for the ministry.  In my opinion, judging whether a person is qualified for ministry is the role strictly for the local church.  The Seminary and professors were there to train me academically to properly exposit the Bible and apply it to modern situations, however, my local church in Greenville SC held an ordination council where they questioned me on doctrinal and practical issues and my specific call to ministry and determined that it was their consensus that I was fit for ministry and ordained me to that end.  The Seminary had nothing to do with that other than giving me a strong foundation to be better prepared to answer some of their questions.

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In my opinion this has gotten

In my opinion this has gotten off topic.  The real question is whether it is ok for a Christian institution to compromise biblical standards to grow their university.  The same question could be asked of churches today too.  The biblical answer is clearly, no.  One college, Cedarville, has while Faith has decided not to.  If you judge a universities success by size and amount of majors offered, then the most godly churches must also be the biggest ones with the most programs to offer. 

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Thanks Ben; Response #2 to Susan

Kudos to Ben for his answer in post no. 47, and thanks for your service to our country! Smile

To get back closer to the topic at hand, I would add that FBTS gave me the same type of academic experience that Ben describes. It was not in any way, shape, form or fashion a repeat of Bible college. I already had a tremendous foundation of Biblical knowledge, going back to kindergarten in my Lutheran grade school, and still learned more in seminary than I can begin to describe.

Which brings me back to Susan's posts: I respect your thoughts a lot Susan, and truly have great admiration for good homeschooling!! However, seminary ain't homeschool. Historically, the M.Div. program has always been compared to medical school and (probably more aptly) law school.

Certainly there are many things that cannot be learned in seminary; in our IFB circles, however, that point has probably been overemphasized. There are a lot more things that have to be learned in seminary.

Which, by the way, is why I am also opposed to the contemporary trend of finding ways to (let me be charitable) streamline seminary to make it shorter, more practical, etc.

FBTS offered me a traditional theological education for which I shall always be grateful to God.

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I think the years spend in

I think the years spend in seminary classrooms, however, as inefficient, and often ineffective, in the sense of practical application and guided practice, and in the sense of verifying other important qualities of ministers, such as the aforementioned 1 Tim. 3 and the fruits of the Spirit. 

And you know this how? By personal experience? By what?

I found the years spent in seminary classrooms to be invaluable training for ministry. And having been in vocational ministry on both sides of seminary, I know the difference not because I have thought about it or read about, but because I lived it.

And we are off topic here a bit to be sure.

 

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Jim wrote: James K wrote: Jim

Jim wrote:

James K wrote:

Jim wrote:

I agree with Kevin,

  • I think that seminary is essential for Pastoral training
  • But I'm not so sure that any undergraduate would suffice prior to seminary

You say this Jim based on what biblical evidence?  If only a seminary can fulfill such functions, then the church is beyond hope and has already failed.  So much for advancing the church.  Certain people have buried it and erected another structure.

James K., my view is not based on biblical evidence and it has flaws.

I see that Pastors need (by way of training):

  • Sufficient education (and I am thinking beyond a Bachelor's degree) to prove their academic mettle. Why: Because, at least in the US, approximately 30% have a Bachelor's degree.
  • Ability and training in the languages. Greek the very least. Many secular colleges also offer Greek.
  • Training in history broadly and Church history specifically
  • Ecclesiastical training with an emphasis on the doctrinal convictions of one's denomination
  • Age ... (comes with time). I have a view that few 28 year olds are hardly "elders". Yes we are not to "despise [their] youth" but honestly many men in their late 20's are still into video games and other foolish things. I won't follow a goofy guy!
  • Experience: And I don't mean a church internship. I mean life-experience: Marriage ... parenting ... paying bills ... balancing a budget ... fender-benders ... the flu ... etc ...
  • Apprenticeship: One on one working with pastors and deacons
  • Having a trade of some kind would be helpful for many men because while no one aspires to be bi-vocational, having to find a job to pay bills often happens
  • Seminary fails in these areas: Aging, experience, and apprenticeship. Additionally a seminary degree does not make one a leader. Seminary can't do that. One failure of the seminary system is that they think they can make the man ... but they can only make the academic-man!

Frankly Jim, part of the problem is that what you are saying is not based on the Bible.  It is at best a pragmatic solution for churches who don't follow the Biblical paradigm.  We render the commands of God of no effect that way.  We take what he actually commanded pastors to do and given them nonessential stuff to do thus limiting their time to obey God.  How is that different than Jesus' rebuke of the pharisaical handling God's word?

Academic mettle is a non issue and not necessary.  What matters is whether a person knows the Scripture and believes what God has said.  That man will be a faithful pastor.  Remember who Jesus recruited as his disciples.

Again, I study the languages, but this is not essential (despite the college profs who all insist it is).  Bunyan didn't know greek either.

You are calling church history a need?  Really?

One does not need to learn the denomination, only the scripture.  Too many get caught up in their denomination rather than Scripture as it is.

I agree there must be maturity, but age doesn't determine that, sadly.  Too many older men are absolute fools on their own issues.  It isn't video games (probably), but it might be money or counseling.

This is close to an actual requirement, managing one's household.

The biblical model is to have younger men within the church to learn from the older men.

Meh, maybe, maybe not.  Probably a good idea, but not a need.

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Citations, please.

James,

And how many John Bunyans have you produced in your ministry?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought so.

Kevin

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Fundy Politics?

Kevin T. Bauder wrote:
Can a person be a Democrat and a fundamentalist? Not intelligently, no.

So what is the fundamentalist option?

I didn't know that fundamentalists were all agreed on how their theological convictions translated into the social/political sphere.

Statements like this one are one of many that force young people, who once claimed to be fundamentalist, to look elsewhere for leadership.

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...or Tozers or Ketchams for

...or Tozers or Ketchams for that matter.

They are the exceptions that prove the rule.

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Larry wrote: I am shocked at

Larry wrote:

I am shocked at the brazen snobbery of this idea. 

Unfortunately, we are not shocked at your language.

The complaints by some that a pastor just doesn't have the time to accomplish his biblical mandate is a cop out.  God knows exactly how much time is in the day and what a pastor is to accomplish with it.  The problem is that so many opt for the single pastor model and then complain about a lack of time.  If they would follow the NT pattern of plural elders (no church is ever said to have only one elder), then the time argument would be eliminated and no obstacle would exist to do their job.  Alas, fidelity to truth is not popular.

First, time is not the only reason. Expertise is another, probably more primary, reason.

Second, many seminaries are functions of a local church (such as Detroit), and carry out these things in this way.

Third, the "single pastor model" has already been solidly established as an acceptable (though perhaps not ideal) model. To say that no church is every said to have only one elder is not really to say much at all, since the number of examples is small, and there is no clear evidence about how elders worked in church designated by cities. So while plurality may be good and even preferable, it not mandated by the Bible, as we can see by reading the Bible and noticing the lack of mandate for it.

Fourth, this has nothing to do with fidelity to the truth. But since you bring it up, 1 Tim 5:1 might be a verse worth some time in meditation.

I am not sure of your intent by your first comment ,but frankly I couldn't care less.  Snobbery is snobbery.  Such an obvious, unbiblical statement was easily dismissed.

First, expertise is rather tricky isn't it?  Who has determined how much expertise a person must have?  Somewhere, someone has decided that an MDiv is enough.  Why not a DMin too?  Of course there are those who do think that.  You have set an artificial standard outside of Scripture.  That is of course your prerogative.

Second, Detroit only partially fulfills this, as they take young men from other churches and have determined what they need for them to be qualified ministers.

Third, single pastor model is acceptable to a great many people.  For that matter, so is the single bishop acting on behalf of God.  I don't care what is acceptable outside of Scripture.  You seem to think it does matter though.  That is of course your prerogative.  The NT plainly states that every church had elders.  If it said that every church had one pastor, you would be all over that.  It doesn't, so you arbitrarily determined it doesn't have any real weight.  Maybe one of the qualifying courses for minister had the single pastor model as best and that is how you were trained.

Fourth, it is about fidelity to the truth.  If pastors were less political about their power, and followed the biblical model, then the duties given to them would be focused on instead of matters that simply take up his time.  It is all about the truth.  Your church doesn't follow it, so you make excuses for why you can't do certain things you are commanded to do.

Finally, I am pretty sure you don't really want to apply 1 Tim 5:1 to this.  If you were serious, then I will be even more sad for our institutions of "higher" learning.

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The underlying question

is very much part of this topic. If the authority of the church is, in fact, Scripturally paramount in matters of teaching and training for the ministry, in the guidance and training of pastors and teachers, then all of these tensions and conflicts would be resolved by the local church under whose authority they operate. But because they are outside of and sometimes treated as superior to the local church, we have churches who assume a diploma=qualifications (as in a, "XYZ University would not give a diploma to this guy if he wasn't qualified" attitude) and Christian organizations that operate without any accountability to a local church. 

Bro. Paul- I'm not comparing homeschooling to seminary point-for-point, but learning is learning, whether you are flying a space shuttle or pruning a tree or pastoring a church, and it is not way outside of the box for people to be self-motivated, self-directed, and to a large degree, self-taught. In specialties such as the medical or legal fields, practical skills are acquired by serving as an intern, after 'textbook' knowledge has been mastered, and people are weeded out who can't cut it because someone is one-on-one working with them, determining whether or not they are fit to continue on that field/specialty. 

The thing with seminary is, our 'textbook' is Scripture, and the qualifications are more than the ability to memorize, being good at math, or eye/hand coordination and dexterity. There is a spiritual component that comes into play, and if we are talking training men for ministry, the spiritual part, IMO, should come first. 

This may be a rabbit trail of sorts, but after reading thread after thread about church/college conflicts, I think it is a worthy question.

I've said all about the Cedarville situation that I feel adequate to say, and thus, having drained my miniscule puddle of knowledge, I retire.

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Kevin T. Bauder

Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

James,

And how many John Bunyans have you produced in your ministry?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought so.

Kevin

So your response to me pointing out your obvious, elitist overstatement is to insult?  Check yourself Kevin.

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I am not sure of your intent

I am not sure of your intent by your first comment ,but frankly I couldn't care less.  Snobbery is snobbery.  Such an obvious, unbiblical statement was easily dismissed.

My intent was probably clear enough, but if not, I will be happy to be explicit. Your response to Kevin was in direct disobedience to God's command in 1 Tim 5:1. He is an older man (though not ancient), and you did not appeal to him as a father; you sharply rebuked him. God said not to do that. Do you take Scripture seriously or no? It's hard for me to imagine you would talk to your father that way. So I appeal to you as a brother to apply 1 Tim 5:1 to your interactions here. Not being able to care less may be a dangerous spot to be about this type of issue.

Having civil and respectful conversation is important here.

First, expertise is rather tricky isn't it?

No, not really. It's pretty easy. And I didn't mention an MDiv here. In fact, I mentioned no degrees at all. I only mentioned knowledge. The MDiv is artificial, but it typically covers a wide range of theological training that pastors need. You don't have to have an MDiv. You do have to know truth.

Second, Detroit only partially fulfills this, as they take young men from other churches and have determined what they need for them to be qualified ministers.

That wasn't my impression, but of course I only attended there. They don't "take young men from other churches." Young men come voluntarily from other churches, and most (if not all) transfer their membership to a local church where they are involved in the ministry alongside a pastor. And DBTS doesn't determine what they need to be qualified ministers. They determine what they need to graduate. DBTS allows the young men's churches to determine if they are qualified.

The NT plainly states that every church had elders.

No it doesn't. It doesn't say anything about "every church." In fact most churches it doesn't even mention. And I am in favor of multiple elders. I am not in favor of adding to Scripture to make that mandatory because Scripture doesn't make it mandatory.

Fourth, it is about fidelity to the truth.  If pastors were less political about their power, and followed the biblical model, then the duties given to them would be focused on instead of matters that simply take up his time.  It is all about the truth.

That doesn't make sense, so I am not sure what you are trying to say. But whether or not a man goes to seminary to get theological training is not a matter of truth. It is a matter of practice. The Bible requires men to be trained. It does not specify exactly how that training is to take place. Truth can be gained in seminary. It can be taught in the pastor's office. It can be gained through a book and a bunch of youtube videos I guess. But I believe seminaries should be part of a local church.

 Your church doesn't follow it, so you make excuses for why you can't do certain things you are commanded to do.

How do you know our church doesn't follow the truth? You don't know anything about our church.

Finally, I am pretty sure you don't really want to apply 1 Tim 5:1 to this.  If you were serious, then I will be even more sad for our institutions of "higher" learning.

Actually, I am deadly serious. I think the Scriptures matter, and I think the truth matters. And I think we need to obey it. When you do not treat elders in accordance with the Scripture, I think it matters.

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James, James

James,

This is why I've avoided SI for years.

Let's get clear. There are insults, and there are pointings out of the obvious. Sometimes people who have overlooked the obvious feel insulted when it is pointed out to them. That does not make it an insult.

You might remember something else that's pretty obvious. Nothing is proven by appealing to the example of a millennial genius. It's like that kid (we've all met him) who argues that he doesn't need to take math because Einstein flunked out of school. Well, if he's another Einstein, maybe he doesn't.

What a minister needs, he needs, however he gets it.

Anyone who is a millennial genius has my permission to skip college and seminary and go straight to the hall of ministerial fame.

If one is not a millennial genius, then appealing to the example of one in order to excuse a deficiency of training (or, worse yet, to encourage others to neglect proper training) is itself a pretty brazen form of snobbery.

A minister who cannot handle the text of Scripture will never be able to do what God calls him to do. The skills for handling Scripture are precisely those I've described. Without those skills, a pastor will only be able to echo what he has heard from others, and he will often find that he is not in a position to judge for himself whether what he has heard is really so.

The minister who cannot apply the text of Scripture will never be able to do what God calls him to do. The skills for applying Scripture include those I've described, though obviously they include more. All ministers need more than they could ever get in seminary. Most of them, however, cannot effectively make do with less. We once tried that route, and we are still suffering the consequences.

Now, as far as I am concerned, this bit of unpleasantness is over. In the old days when we used to have standalone BBS systems that required dial-up modems, our software had an "ignore" function that allowed us to add abusive posters (who were called "trolls") to what was called a "killfile." It would simply delete whatever the troll posted. Even today, Usenet readers have that option. Unfortunately, Sharper Iron does not offer it, so I'm going to have to make the adjustment internally in my own mind.

<PLONK>

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Christian politics, actually

Isaac,

There may be an indefinite number of political options open to a fundamentalist, just as there may be an indefinite number of good foods that a fundamentalist could eat. In neither case do I know them all.

But I don't have to know them all in order to know that the positions of the Democratic party are poisonous, just as I know that toadstools are poisonous.

Statements don't force anybody to look anywhere. People make choices. If you are anything resembling a thoughtful person, then you are going to have to make a choice between the principles of biblical Christianity and the principles of the Democratic party. You cannot consistently hold both.

Kevin

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Kevin T. Bauder wrote: If you

Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

If you are anything resembling a thoughtful person, then you are going to have to make a choice between the principles of biblical Christianity and the principles of the Democratic party. You cannot consistently hold both.

Kevin

I don't buy this even though I can't ever remember voting for a Democrat. I am not sure what principles you are referring to that would make the Democratic party incompatible with biblical Christianity. 

Economic principles? No. There are strengths and weaknesses to both sides of that debate and both have some advantages from a biblical and practical standpoint. But it seems clear that the Bible does not endorse any particular economic system. If it did, based on the Israel theocratic model, it would likely be somewhere between the two parties. 

Social principles? That is a stronger argument, but even so, I am skeptical. Since the Bible is silent on such pet issues as the right to bear arms, it would seem to me that this comes down mostly to abortion and gay rights. The positions held by Democrats on those issues can be pretty nuanced. A person could for example believe strongly that government-sanctioned gay discrimination is wrong while still being against homosexuality. 

I think that people could intelligently argue that the Democratic party, while having problems, has some biblical advantages over the Republican party in such areas as treatment of the poor. They could decide that the pros outweigh the cons. I have never seen the data but my suspicion is that the treatment of the poor the most common reason why some evangelicals are drawn to the Democratic party.

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Monty Python

James K wrote:

Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

James,

And how many John Bunyans have you produced in your ministry?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought so.

Kevin

So your response to me pointing out your obvious, elitist overstatement is to insult?  Check yourself Kevin.

 

Go away or I shall taught you a second time! 

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Kevin, I do not know of

Kevin,

I do not know of anyone who agrees with all of any one party’s principles. There is “poison” in all parties, so I think your dichotomy between “biblical” Christianity and the Democratic party is unnecessary.

Either way, how does aligning with any party NOT transgress Fundamentalism’s practice of secondary separation?

Young fundamentalists are continually questioning whether or not they should “stay” within fundamentalism. When we realize that we do not operate under the same presuppositions that supposed leaders within fundamentalism do, in a sense we are “forced” to make a decision to look elsewhere.

IK

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GregH wrote: Kevin T. Bauder

GregH wrote:

Kevin T. Bauder wrote:

If you are anything resembling a thoughtful person, then you are going to have to make a choice between the principles of biblical Christianity and the principles of the Democratic party. You cannot consistently hold both.

Kevin

I don't buy this even though I can't ever remember voting for a Democrat. I am not sure what principles you are referring to that would make the Democratic party incompatible with biblical Christianity. 

Economic principles? No. There are strengths and weaknesses to both sides of that debate and both have some advantages from a biblical and practical standpoint. But it seems clear that the Bible does not endorse any particular economic system. If it did, based on the Israel theocratic model, it would likely be somewhere between the two parties. 

Social principles? That is a stronger argument, but even so, I am skeptical. Since the Bible is silent on such pet issues as the right to bear arms, it would seem to me that this comes down mostly to abortion and gay rights. The positions held by Democrats on those issues can be pretty nuanced. A person could for example believe strongly that government-sanctioned gay discrimination is wrong while still being against homosexuality. 

I think that people could intelligently argue that the Democratic party, while having problems, has some biblical advantages over the Republican party in such areas as treatment of the poor. They could decide that the pros outweigh the cons. I have never seen the data but my suspicion is that the treatment of the poor the most common reason why some evangelicals are drawn to the Democratic party.

 

+1

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Kevin, I will give you the

Kevin, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not intentionally insulting.  My objection to your statement was not used to excuse a poor education, but where you have your confidence.  You believe that the seminary is a must for a good ministry.  I disagree but don't think anymore needs to be said at this point.

Larry, there is just so much, but you are no doubt convinced in your own mind.  You understand it or you don't.  You see what you want to see.  I wish you well.

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Acts 14:23 is one such

Acts 14:23 is one such passage for you Larry.  Every church had plural elders.  If you can find one that only had one, then I won't bring it up again with you.  Deal?

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Larry, I also believe 2

Larry, I also believe 2 Timothy 3:16.  In fact, I believe it is for all people.  The foolish statement needed to be corrected.  Hopefully we can both now move beyond this.

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Acts 14:23 is one such

Acts 14:23 is one such passage for you Larry.  Every church had plural elders.

Every church where? You see, Acts 14 has a context in which "every church" has meaning. It doesn't necessarily mean every church every where in the world. It means every church in the context of the missionary journey in Acts 14. That's my point. The Bible doesn't say anything about elders at every church in all places in all times. It simply doesn't.

Can we extend that all churches everywhere in all times without exception as you want to? Perhaps. But that's an argument that has to actually be made. It cannot rest on a bald assertion that all churches must have plurality when the biblical support is the phrase "every church" that refers to a specific area at a specific time.

But remember, your beef is not with me. I am in favor of plural elders. But I am in favor of the authority of Scripture, and Scripture does not mandate that anywhere that I know of, and you apparently don't either because you haven't shown it. And so because Scripture does not declare churches to be out of line for having a single elder, I do not have the liberty to do so.

Larry, I also believe 2 Timothy 3:16.  In fact, I believe it is for all people.  The foolish statement needed to be corrected.  Hopefully we can both now move beyond this.

I am not sure how that is relevant. No one here objects to inspiration or to the profitability of Scripture. And no one objects to the correcting of foolish statements. Those are all irrelevant distractions from the point.

The particular issue at hand that I objected to was the disrespect shown to someone else. 1 Tim 5:1 has a clear and indisputable teaching on that.

Why don't you do this: Get your fellow elders there together and ask them to look in on your participation here and particularly that comment and ask them if they believe that it is in line with what 1 Tim 5:1 says about dealing with older men. You don't answer to me, but hopefully you answer to them and have some accountability with them.

And with that, we need to return this thread to its topic.

 

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Another Perspective

Here's the perspective of someone who has spent the last 3 1/2 years taking on-line / modular MDiv classes from Baptist Bible Seminary in Clarks Summit, PA:

 

I have an undergrad in English and a MBA in marketing. I have worked in "corporate America" since 1997. I am thankful that I have a marketable degree / skill that has allowed me to provide for my family of six (with my wife at home) and still take 4-6 credit hours / semester at BBS w/o taking out loans. Based on my conversations with pastors and other seminary students in IFB-land and the SBC, I think it is wise for men interested in the ministry to pursue a marketable undergrad degree and then go on to seminary. I've seen too many Bible majors, youth ministry majors, evangelism majors, and even seminary-trained PhDs struggling to survive after 1) they discovered they weren't really called to ministry,  2) they were fired from their ministry position (for whatever reason), 3) they accepted a pastorate of a small church that couldn't possibly meet their growing family's financial needs, or 4) they couldn't find a teaching position at a college / seminary / university.

 

That being said, I believe seminary is essential for pastoral ministry to fulfill the "apt to teach" requirement in 1 Tim 3. I also believe that it is essential for the church to fulfill its responsibility to test, train, affirm, and send men into ministry. Most seminaries require a pastor's recommendation for admission. If unqualified men are entering / leaving the seminary, it is ultimately a failure of the sending church / pastor to properly test, train, and affirm that the man meets the character qualifications of 1 Tim 3 / Titus 1. I am thankful that for the past 3 1/2 years I have been able to not only take seminary classes, but also to serve in my local church and to have my life, family, and ministry examined by my church family and elders. I am also thankful that BBS requires a year-long internship where I am mentored and trained by elders who have had years of practical ministry experience.

 

I've experienced what a lack of seminary education produces from the pulpit. No thank you!

I've also seen what happens to a church when it fails to test, train, and affirm men before sending them into ministry.  No thank you!

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I still trust Faith

As far as preparing for church ministry goes, I still trust Faith.  I also trust Maranatha,  where I graduated from, plus BJU, altho' not necessarily in producing

Baptists.  Northland and PCC would qualify somewhat for me.  I pray for these schools.

I realize I lean toward every young person going to a Bible college at least one or two years.  I feel that is just as important as one going to seminary.

A Bible college experience is important because of the necessity for studying and learning from the most important Book in the entire world, The Holy Scriptures which live and abide forever.

 

I do have respect and do appreciate Christian colleges, but Bible colleges are more important to me and that is not to put down the Christian colleges.

 

 

Bert Baker   Ex. 15;2

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A Local Church Training Ministers

This is the only example I know of a local church with a purposeful plan to train ministers:

http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/we-provide/internships/

 

Does anyone know of similar programs?

The usual method of a local church training ministers that I've seen involves the pastor taking his son (literally or figuratively) and trying to clone himself. The end result is sometimes similar to the original but maybe a shade or two lighter.

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Ron Bean wrote: This is the

Ron Bean wrote:

This is the only example I know of a local church with a purposeful plan to train ministers:

http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/we-provide/internships/

 

Does anyone know of similar programs?

 

I've appreciated the ministry and writings of pastor Brian Croft in this regard.

http://practicalshepherding.com/

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Exactly Susan's point

Bert Baker wrote:
A Bible college experience is important because of the necessity for studying and learning from the most important Book in the entire world, The Holy Scriptures which live and abide forever.
Bert,

This is a non sequitur. Of course Bible study is essential for the believer. That has nothing to do with the importance of Bible college. That's the church's responsibility. I and my fellow elders are starting a class on systematic theology with our church this Sunday - using the same text book I used 20 years ago in Bible college. Is Bible college nice - yes. Necessary - not for this (though I would not necessarily extend this to seminary preparation for ministry).

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Not either/or, but both/and

I find myself in sympathy with Susan, Dr. Bauder, so at the risk of making myself foolish, let me venture forth here.

I think that what Susan and I would both prefer (based on our interactions) is some kind of training where local churches can give men the kinds of serious scriptural scrutiny and hands on experience (kind of a pre-seminary school) first to make sure that the prospective pastors are shown and known to be in alignment with Scripture (I Tim 3) and can get exposure to the 'OJT' of ministry, and then, after they've gotten their feet wet, "promoted" (for lack of a better term) to seminary, maybe with the church supporting them a little financially as 'missionaries' so that they can get the critical but more academic ministerial training (Greek, Hebrew, Church History, etc).  It's kind of that whole "Let a man first be tried" idea that some guy named Paul suggested to Timothy. Smile

I can speak as someone who has both undergrad and grad degrees in Pastoral Studies, but right now I'm working in a full time career outside of the ministry (long story), and serving as a kind of second man/unpaid intern in my local church.  I find that doing this internship-type relationship has been incredibly helpful and has exposed deficiencies that I wish I had know about before going off to school, and it's increased my desire to serve in a church, not reduced it; it might also reduce the number of guys who either don't really want to serve or aren't taking it seriously to drop out and save everyone turmoil down the road.  I also would have taken my studies a LOT more seriously if I had been forced to go through that process first, then gone to seminary afterward.  The few men that I saw in grad school that had gone this route (usually ex-military guys) were easily the cream of the crop in my class.

Of course, that's MUCH easier said than done, but I do think we see a little bit of a shift that way now - Calvary Lansdale had something like it back in the early '00s (possibly earlier), Central and (I believe) DBTS do something like it, and I've heard that TMS and Bethlehem seminaries do that as well, but don't know for sure.  I've heard of other schools, of course, but don't know much at all about them - feel free to share more information if you do know of this.

Thanks for interacting with hoi polloi.  I appreciate the dialogue back and forth, esp. since Minnesota is a little far from New York!

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Test, Train, Affirm, and Send...

Jay wrote:
I think that what Susan and I would both prefer (based on our interactions) is some kind of training where local churches can give men the kinds of serious scriptural scrutiny and hands on experience (kind of a pre-seminary school) first to make sure that the prospective pastors are shown and known to be in alignment with Scripture (I Tim 3) and can get exposure to the 'OJT' of ministry, and then, after they've gotten their feet wet, "promoted" (for lack of a better term) to seminary, maybe with the church supporting them a little financially as 'missionaries' so that they can get the critical but more academic ministerial training (Greek, Hebrew, Church History, etc).  It's kind of that whole "Let a man first be tried" idea that some guy named Paul suggested to Timothy. :)

I'm not Dr Bauder, but...

Jay, yes, it is the church's responsibility to test, train, affirm, and send men into ministry. Before men go off to bible school or seminary, the church needs to evaluate their lives, families, and calling to ministry. The church needs to evaluate whether the man truly possesses the spiritual gifts needed for pastoral ministry.

Unfortunately, what I've seen take place is that a teenager goes off to camp for a week and comes back excited saying he was called to be a youth pastor / missionary while at camp. Everyone is excited for his decision.  However, there is no purposeful examination of his life and his calling, there is very little training / discipleship provided while he is still in high school, and there is no effort made to affirm whether he is truly gifted for pastoral ministry. Instead, he is paraded in front of the church where he tells everyone God called him to be a pastor.  Off to Bible college he goes with a $500 church scholarship...

The other situation I've seen is when a man (in his 20s or 30s) believes God is calling him to ministry. He lets his pastor know about this desire, but the pastor offers very little in the way of theological, exegetical, or practical training for the man. Additionally, the man may evidence weaknesses in his life or in his family, but no one addresses those weaknesses with him.  Instead, it is believed that if the man goes to bible college or seminary that those weaknesses will take care of themselves.

I believe there needs to be a more intentional process involved.  The teen / man needs to be vetted by the church and the elders before they stand him in front of the congregation and tell the people that he is called to ministry.  He needs an honest appraisal of his ministry giftedness, his personal character, and his family. In other words, he needs to be tested and trained before the pastor / church affirms his calling and sends him to bible school and/or seminary.

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Also

T Howard wrote:
...it is the church's responsibility to test, train, affirm, and send men into ministry. Before men go off to bible school or seminary, the church needs to evaluate their lives, families, and calling to ministry. The church needs to evaluate whether the man truly possesses the spiritual gifts needed for pastoral ministry...

I believe there needs to be a more intentional process involved.  The teen / man needs to be vetted by the church and the elders before they stand him in front of the congregation and tell the people that he is called to ministry.  He needs an honest appraisal of his ministry giftedness, his personal character, and his family. In other words, he needs to be tested and trained before the pastor / church affirms his calling and sends him to bible school and/or seminary.

In the best of all worlds, IMO, he would not have to leave his church to attend seminary. He could remain within the already established support system of church leadership, family, and friends, and thus accountability stays with his home church.

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Best?

In the best of all worlds, IMO, he would not have to leave his church to attend seminary. He could remain within the already established support system of church leadership, family, and friends, and thus accountability stays with his home church.

That is one good way, sure. But "best"? Even in the NT, you had people like Timothy traveling with Paul and getting training away from home, or Jesus taking his disciples away from familiar surroundings... I understand the appeal, on one level, of a church producing a pastor from within the ranks. There is no inherent benefit, however, to a restricted perspective like that. Sometimes an "outsider" perspective, in fact, can be a great benefit (said the half-Filipino guy who never lived anywhere more than three years until he got into high school, and never lived in Minnesota until he came to be a pastor... Smile ). Seriously, how many people are we ministering to here in American churches who have lived in the community all their lives. Less than half of our families have roots here in Marshall- most everyone came here for employment or something like that, either from another part of the state or country. Our most significant new ministry opportunity here the last three years has been with S'gaw Karen refugees from Burma, who comprise a third or more of our Sunday AM attendance most weeks. We could actually use some outside perspective to improve how we minister, but we are doing the best with what we have in the meantime.

Stability like you speak of is great, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing to have movement, either.

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Susan R wrote:In the best of

Susan R wrote:
In the best of all worlds, IMO, he would not have to leave his church to attend seminary. He could remain within the already established support system of church leadership, family, and friends, and thus accountability stays with his home church.

 

As I mentioned before, I'm a on-line MDiv student at BBS.  That means that I can remain in my church and remain at my employer while taking seminary classes. To me, the ability to complete my MDiv on-line has been a blessing both to me and to my church. I can immediately apply what I'm learning in the classroom to my ministry context, whether it's biblical languages, theology, exegetical methods, or ministry leadership. I know I'm missing out on the camaraderie involved with a residential program, but I think being deeply involved in a local church provides me with the sanctification, challenge, and sharpening that I need.  In reality, I believe I'm receiving the best of both worlds: seminary-level training while living in an intimate, messy local church context.

BTW, there's no way I could receive the seminary-level theological and biblical languages training I have received at BBS from my elders. First, because they don't have it themselves. Second, because they don't have enough time in the evenings and on the weekends every week to spend with me (remember, I have a full-time job). And, third, because I would not receive a different  (and sometimes better / more helpful) perspective on ministry, preaching, and shepherding.

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dangers on multiple sides

I appreciate the back and forth.

If you read the Biblical passages that speak to the character and skill demands of serving the Lord's church as an elder/pastor/bishop I think all of us would agree it's daunting.

We need to work together - home's, seminaries, churches. I think most of us want the same thing. Men who have been tested and who have allowed their minds, hearts and hands to be challenged.

So in no particular order - here are the dangers....or maybe better......here are the needs, I've seen after serving 21 plus years in pastoral ministry, studying and graduating from several learning institutions:

1. Godly men. Not smart men. Not sharp men. Not great "talkers." Not even great "thinkers" or even "leaders" (although all of those are helpful). Humble men who love and walk closely with the Lord (Jeremiah 9?). Men who love to read about God....to hear from him in His word and through prayer. Leaders who are so broken over their own natural propensity for "self," it's easy to dispense grace and mercy because you can't imagine anyone else other than the person you see every morning in the mirror who needed more grace and mercy! Connected to this is also the idea of being Godly in the sense of growing in the knowledge of God. Obviously this is connected with the Scriptures (next category) but it is also understanding how others have grown in the knowledge of God. It is also an emphasis of growing in the Lord personally through personal (and corporate) study, meditation and worship.

2. Bible men. So it's true it would be possible to learn the Scriptures without the rigors of seminary - but I don't believe I have or had the amount of discipline and focus that it would require what I've been taught in a BA, MA, MDiv, ThM and D.Min programs of study. I'm sure there are those out there who have - that's great. But with the continued effects of dyslexia as well as just my ability to be confused - wow - did I ever need the interaction of those men who have spent a life-time focused on church history, or theology, or Ecclesiastes, or Greek, or Apologetics, or even......and I can't imagine I'm admitting their value......the seminary librarians! All of that is valuable only if I love the Book! If I love theology or philosophy more than the book, a seminary education can actually take away from one's commitment. Because a text can only mean what it only meant and it a text can never mean what it never meant - one will need to use all the tools he can get his hands on to make sure we are handling God's word with accuracy and care!

3. Family men. I love my wife and my sons. Today there is nothing and no one (at least here) more important to me than Toni, Jonathan, Jeremy and Josh. There was a time early on in ministry I would have chosen "ministry" over family. Wow talk about idolatry of the Baal order! God broke me of that. I'm sure there are still times when I'm tempted by the idol of ministry. We have to have a generation of leaders who while not ignoring the church family will not allow that calling to undermine the larger call of leading the home. Forgive me for being dispensationally sloppy here - frankly we need to make sure young men headed into ministry are the priests of their home! If they are not willing to do so - don't send them to seminary!

4. Church men. There is no question that a large slice of the pie here rests on congregations to train, test and then use incrementally those who desire to serve the church in shepherding kinds of ministry. We must have leaders who love the local church and don't have an "entitlement mentality" towards the local church. How can I get what I want out of these people! - No! Godly leaders will be looking to serve the church not demand of the church. It bothers me - I keep running into seminary grads that 1) were never faithful or even really used while in a local church while going to seminary or 2) they come out thinking they know better and so until they are in their own church they cause "havoc" wherever they go to church because the dear pastor who doesn't have all the education they have is a "dip-stick" in their opinion. Talk about spitting on the local church!  

5. Loving men. So if you don't like people why in the world would you pastor! Oh my word - if all you want to do is to stay in your office and study do not shepherd! That's like a shepherd who stays out of the field reading about sheep, learning about sheep, talking about sheep, thinking about sheep, drawing pictures about sheep, arguing about sheep - but never hanging with the sheep! Pleeeeeeeeaze! Yes - if you are going to shepherd and actively know the sheep you're going to have to learn how to delegate some of the preaching, teaching, administration, counseling, etc.....but if you don't trust anyone other than yourself - you will kill yourself trying to do it all. Love and trust God's people! You can't imagine how much they can get done - especially with the gifts of the Holy Spirit they were given. One more aspect of being a loving man is being patient with those who need to grow in the Lord. Often time the highly trained are too impatient. In large part because they haven't gotten over themselves yet......which brings us to the next category. 

6. Humble men. We often assume that the more trained you are the more arrogant you are. Frankly I've met just as many (maybe more) leaders whose reason for not receiving training was that they thought they knew it all - or knew it best! Wowzers......talk about arrogance! When you work on a leadership or elders team, there is such diversity. One of the great things you quickly learn is how you can learn so much from other brothers......but not if you think you know it all! Unfortunatly.....there is a reason why some of our institutions have a reputation of being a "know it all" type of a place. That's because too many of our graduates come out with that "reputation." I think it should be required of all ministerial students to have to clean the bathrooms in the university or seminary at least once a month or for the larger seminaries - clean the bathrooms at least once a semester. For those students that say it's beneath them - it would give us a chance to explain they haven't been called into ministry yet. Those who are called will have a servants heart - that rejoices in cleaning toilets for the glory of God!  

7. Balanced men. I'm trying like thunder to loose weight and get the exercise I need. I am working hard at doing some "outside reading" (right now a biography of Richard the Lionheart) as well as Biblical or theological reading (right now a book on Pastoral Theology by my brother in law - David Smith - "Pastor Revisited: A Re-examination of the Primary Role of the New Testament Pastor") while I'm working with an editor who is almost done with my own book on the decision-making of the church. About a month ago I took my boys out to the desert where we exercised our 2nd amendment rights with a variety of weapons. My dear father and I and several other friends where treated to a College bowl game near the end of December at ASU stadium. It was fun to watch dad enjoy the victory of MSU over Texas Christian. If I need it or not about once a week I try to watch a 1950 black and white Sci-Fi with a small bucket of fat-free popcorn (Thankfully Hollywood made about 300 of these kinds of flicks back in the 50's and early 60's). I try to spend some personal "one-on-one" time with each son as often as I can. About once a week my wife and I enjoy a date together. I don't have this perfectly wired but we need to encourage our young leaders the importance of balance and then accepting the fact that you might not be the next Kevin Bauder - but that's OK because we really only need one of him. And we need one of you!

Final Thought - I could go on (opps - looks like I did - sorry for the length - perhaps we need "concise men!" Smile) - we could easily come up with more categories like "careful men," "thinking men," "courageous men," etc..... Let me wrap this up. So in order to have this from upcoming leaders, it will require that men pick up the skills and the character that Godly churches, homes and institutions care about. It may be that a leader simply cannot have access to a seminary - but certainly he can apply himself to the Word and step by step grow into the wise leader that God will greatly use in the life of his church and the lives of his children.

Straight Ahead!

jt

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Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Baptist Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries; Author, “The Pyramid and the Box: The Decision-Making Process in a Local NT Church” (available soon with Resource Publications at www.wipfandstock.org). Outside of Pastoral ministry Joel has a passion to encourage leaders and their ministries. Joel's favorite thing to do is "hanging" with his wife Toni and their three sons Jonathan, Jeremy and Joshua. Joel can be reached at pastorjoel@sevbc.org. Straight Ahead!

 

 

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Membership and accountability

Bro. Linscott, surely you understand that I wasn't suggesting that a man never travel or spend time with other ministers. 

The typical scenario is that for a man to attend seminary, he has to leave, not just his hometown, but his home church. He then promptly joins another church under another pastor, with whom he may have little prior knowledge and no relationship. For a time, he attends classes with strangers, and is taught by strangers. He may develop deep and meaningful relationships with them, and that's great, but isn't there something significant and irreplaceable about the accountability of friends and family and church leadership connections that have been formed over time? 

We seem to value be a faithful member of one's local church- until it's time to train for ministry... and then the man leaves and joins whatever church the seminary approves of? That just doesn't strike me as a best case scenario, or a particularly Biblical case either.

BTW, there's no way I could receive the seminary-level theological and biblical languages training I have received at BBS from my elders. First, because they don't have it themselves...

Bro. Howard- according to the apparent consensus in this thread, they aren't qualified to be in the ministry anyway.

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My pastor is fairly handy in

My pastor is fairly handy in Greek and can suss out the Hebrew.  But, I don't know if he is apt to teach either language or if he had the time to do so.

Susan R wrote:
SNIP

BTW, there's no way I could receive the seminary-level theological and biblical languages training I have received at BBS from my elders. First, because they don't have it themselves...

Bro. Howard- according to the apparent consensus in this thread, they aren't qualified to be in the ministry anyway.

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Sure.

He may develop deep and meaningful relationships with them, and that's great, but isn't there something significant and irreplaceable about the accountability of friends and family and church leadership connections that have been formed over time?

Sure there is. But not every church is in a position to do so effectively. My home state of Maine, for example- there are very few Fundamental churches, and many of the ones that are there are struggling, by and large, to pay a full-time salary for one man, even. You can mentor guys in a situation like that, but there is little possibility of providing in-depth academic instruction for others. The small churches make it very easy to get an insulated perspective. I would also observe that seminary training among the pastors that are there is the exception. There are a few- Kevin has mentioned Ken Endean, for example, who is in the southern, more populated region of the state (which we would often refer to as "the other Maine" Smile ), You get further north and inland and many of the men only have 2 or three year Bible Institute training. I was an exception when I ministered there with a four-year bachelors. In that scenario, I really see the value of sending men with an inclination for ministry away for further training. Some won't come back, but some might.

What you are speaking of is an ideal, but I would say that in the end, it is best going to work out for philosophy-shaping than the academic end of things. I like what T Howard has brought into this with the online option- I too am taking classes, currently, from the same institution he is. It is a good way to keep training while remaining in your local church and so on. I would also observe that if one does leave hometown and home church, one should make sure he plants roots in the church he will be in as he trains. When my wife and I did go to Faith as newlyweds, we went down two months early in order to find a church before all the other students came, so that we could know the people and find a place to serve. That ended up being the church I belonged to the longest period in my life (over 8 years between college for my wife and I, plus time as a salaried associate pastor after graduation). So, it's what you make of it.

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There are some churches that

There are some churches that are trying to combine the best of both worlds. Sojourn Community Church in Louisville is partnering with The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary for its Pastors School.

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Mark Mincy
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Bravo

Joel Tetreau wrote:

I appreciate the back and forth.

If you read the Biblical passages that speak to the character and skill demands of serving the Lord's church as an elder/pastor/bishop I think all of us would agree it's daunting.

We need to work together - home's, seminaries, churches. I think most of us want the same thing. Men who have been tested and who have allowed their minds, hearts and hands to be challenged.

So in no particular order - here are the dangers....or maybe better......here are the needs, I've seen after serving 21 plus years in pastoral ministry, studying and graduating from several learning institutions:

1. Godly men. Not smart men. Not sharp men. Not great "talkers." Not even great "thinkers" or even "leaders" (although all of those are helpful). Humble men who love and walk closely with the Lord (Jeremiah 9?). Men who love to read about God....to hear from him in His word and through prayer. Leaders who are so broken over their own natural propensity for "self," it's easy to dispense grace and mercy because you can't imagine anyone else other than the person you see every morning in the mirror who needed more grace and mercy! Connected to this is also the idea of being Godly in the sense of growing in the knowledge of God. Obviously this is connected with the Scriptures (next category) but it is also understanding how others have grown in the knowledge of God. It is also an emphasis of growing in the Lord personally through personal (and corporate) study, meditation and worship.

2. Bible men. So it's true it would be possible to learn the Scriptures without the rigors of seminary - but I don't believe I have or had the amount of discipline and focus that it would require what I've been taught in a BA, MA, MDiv, ThM and D.Min programs of study. I'm sure there are those out there who have - that's great. But with the continued effects of dyslexia as well as just my ability to be confused - wow - did I ever need the interaction of those men who have spent a life-time focused on church history, or theology, or Ecclesiastes, or Greek, or Apologetics, or even......and I can't imagine I'm admitting their value......the seminary librarians! All of that is valuable only if I love the Book! If I love theology or philosophy more than the book, a seminary education can actually take away from one's commitment. Because a text can only mean what it only meant and it a text can never mean what it never meant - one will need to use all the tools he can get his hands on to make sure we are handling God's word with accuracy and care!

3. Family men. I love my wife and my sons. Today there is nothing and no one (at least here) more important to me than Toni, Jonathan, Jeremy and Josh. There was a time early on in ministry I would have chosen "ministry" over family. Wow talk about idolatry of the Baal order! God broke me of that. I'm sure there are still times when I'm tempted by the idol of ministry. We have to have a generation of leaders who while not ignoring the church family will not allow that calling to undermine the larger call of leading the home. Forgive me for being dispensationally sloppy here - frankly we need to make sure young men headed into ministry are the priests of their home! If they are not willing to do so - don't send them to seminary!

4. Church men. There is no question that a large slice of the pie here rests on congregations to train, test and then use incrementally those who desire to serve the church in shepherding kinds of ministry. We must have leaders who love the local church and don't have an "entitlement mentality" towards the local church. How can I get what I want out of these people! - No! Godly leaders will be looking to serve the church not demand of the church. It bothers me - I keep running into seminary grads that 1) were never faithful or even really used while in a local church while going to seminary or 2) they come out thinking they know better and so until they are in their own church they cause "havoc" wherever they go to church because the dear pastor who doesn't have all the education they have is a "dip-stick" in their opinion. Talk about spitting on the local church!  

5. Loving men. So if you don't like people why in the world would you pastor! Oh my word - if all you want to do is to stay in your office and study do not shepherd! That's like a shepherd who stays out of the field reading about sheep, learning about sheep, talking about sheep, thinking about sheep, drawing pictures about sheep, arguing about sheep - but never hanging with the sheep! Pleeeeeeeeaze! Yes - if you are going to shepherd and actively know the sheep you're going to have to learn how to delegate some of the preaching, teaching, administration, counseling, etc.....but if you don't trust anyone other than yourself - you will kill yourself trying to do it all. Love and trust God's people! You can't imagine how much they can get done - especially with the gifts of the Holy Spirit they were given. One more aspect of being a loving man is being patient with those who need to grow in the Lord. Often time the highly trained are too impatient. In large part because they haven't gotten over themselves yet......which brings us to the next category. 

6. Humble men. We often assume that the more trained you are the more arrogant you are. Frankly I've met just as many (maybe more) leaders whose reason for not receiving training was that they thought they knew it all - or knew it best! Wowzers......talk about arrogance! When you work on a leadership or elders team, there is such diversity. One of the great things you quickly learn is how you can learn so much from other brothers......but not if you think you know it all! Unfortunatly.....there is a reason why some of our institutions have a reputation of being a "know it all" type of a place. That's because too many of our graduates come out with that "reputation." I think it should be required of all ministerial students to have to clean the bathrooms in the university or seminary at least once a month or for the larger seminaries - clean the bathrooms at least once a semester. For those students that say it's beneath them - it would give us a chance to explain they haven't been called into ministry yet. Those who are called will have a servants heart - that rejoices in cleaning toilets for the glory of God!  

7. Balanced men. I'm trying like thunder to loose weight and get the exercise I need. I am working hard at doing some "outside reading" (right now a biography of Richard the Lionheart) as well as Biblical or theological reading (right now a book on Pastoral Theology by my brother in law - David Smith - "Pastor Revisited: A Re-examination of the Primary Role of the New Testament Pastor") while I'm working with an editor who is almost done with my own book on the decision-making of the church. About a month ago I took my boys out to the desert where we exercised our 2nd amendment rights with a variety of weapons. My dear father and I and several other friends where treated to a College bowl game near the end of December at ASU stadium. It was fun to watch dad enjoy the victory of MSU over Texas Christian. If I need it or not about once a week I try to watch a 1950 black and white Sci-Fi with a small bucket of fat-free popcorn (Thankfully Hollywood made about 300 of these kinds of flicks back in the 50's and early 60's). I try to spend some personal "one-on-one" time with each son as often as I can. About once a week my wife and I enjoy a date together. I don't have this perfectly wired but we need to encourage our young leaders the importance of balance and then accepting the fact that you might not be the next Kevin Bauder - but that's OK because we really only need one of him. And we need one of you!

Final Thought - I could go on (opps - looks like I did - sorry for the length - perhaps we need "concise men!" Smile) - we could easily come up with more categories like "careful men," "thinking men," "courageous men," etc..... Let me wrap this up. So in order to have this from upcoming leaders, it will require that men pick up the skills and the character that Godly churches, homes and institutions care about. It may be that a leader simply cannot have access to a seminary - but certainly he can apply himself to the Word and step by step grow into the wise leader that God will greatly use in the life of his church and the lives of his children.

Straight Ahead!

jt

 

Well said, Joel.  And thanks...I now have my Father's Day message for this year Smile.

Seriously, I appreciate your thoughts.

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CLeavell
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New Resource

www.theologicalresources.org

 

Here you go. As my Grandpa used to say “there’s nothing holding you back but your speed.” Look for more opportunities like this.  Autodidacticism needs to be a big part of what pastors look for in their own education.

T Howard
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Another Resource for Pastors

Here's a resource from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary to help men grow in their understanding of God's Word:

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=39466

Paul J
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Interesting Church Based Learning

I attended a presentation on this program a few years ago which has some interesting local church opportunity. http://antiochschool.edu/

Susan R
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Ideals

Yes, many of my opinions/suggestions are based on an ideal situation. Our Christian walk is often guided by the pursuance of an 'ideal', so I'm OK with that.

2 Tim. 2:2  And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

That's the ideal. No excuses, no "It's too difficult" or "That's not practical". The intended pattern here is fairly clear.

The nature of instruction, as many seem to view it, is that learning is based primarily on the conveyance of information. However, mastery is accomplished by guided practice and demonstration of skills, not by rote memorization. 

For instance, I have an eidetic memory- I can walk out of the grocery store and sing word-for-word whatever song was playing, even if I have never heard it before. If only Name that Tune was still on tv.... I can also 'see' pages that I have studied, and memorize by picturing the page in my mind and essentially 'reading' it. I can pass any test you care to put in front of me after about 15 minutes of study. Big whoop-de-doo, because while it's a fun party trick, it doesn't make me (gender notwithstanding) qualified for ministry.

T Howard wrote:
Most seminaries require a pastor's recommendation for admission. If unqualified men are entering / leaving the seminary, it is ultimately a failure of the sending church / pastor to properly test, train, and affirm that the man meets the character qualifications of 1 Tim 3 / Titus 1.

My main point has been and remains that too many seminaries are disconnected from local churches, and bear no responsibility for the men to whom they grant diplomas. It's a long span of time from registration to graduation, so who is overseeing these men to ensure that those who receive a diploma are, in actuality, qualified to minister as per Scriptural guidelines, and not just completed courses and a passing GPA?

Do seminaries refuse to grant diplomas to guys who have serious marital problems? Have gotten themselves deeply into unsecured debt? Have a porn addiction? If they become aware, they might- but because they typically do not have the kind of relationships with their students that causes these character issues to come to light, men are granted diplomas and set loose to prey on sheep without anyone being the wiser. That's why mentoring is not just important, it is essential. 

As for the topic- we may be on a rabbit trail (my apologies to the OP) but I think the underlying issue here is that the seminary is supposed to be a practical solution for the need to effectively teach and train ministers, which is Scripturally a function of the local church. But when seminaries leave that authority structure, all kinds of mischief seems to follow.

While Cedarville isn't billed as a seminary per se, it does grant ministry degrees, and the problems that I have been grousing about cannot be addressed properly at such a large institution. Where the school stands doctrinally doesn't tell me anything about where their graduates stand on doctrine or in conduct. 

These seemingly disparate ideas (the premise of the OP and my comments/questions) are very much connected in my mind. 

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Chip Van Emmerik
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Susan R wrote:My main point

Susan R wrote:
My main point has been and remains that too many seminaries are disconnected from local churches, and bear no responsibility for the men to whom they grant diplomas. It's a long span of time from registration to graduation, so who is overseeing these men to ensure that those who receive a diploma are, in actuality, qualified to minister as per Scriptural guidelines, and not just completed courses and a passing GPA?

Do seminaries refuse to grant diplomas to guys who have serious marital problems? Have gotten themselves deeply into unsecured debt? Have a porn addiction? If they become aware, they might- but because they typically do not have the kind of relationships with their students that causes these character issues to come to light, men are granted diplomas and set loose to prey on sheep without anyone being the wiser. That's why mentoring is not just important, it is essential.

Susan,

I sympathize with the majority of what you have to say in this thread, but I think you are minimizing the process a little too much here. No seminary I know of sends guys out stamped for ministry. They issue a diploma - that's it. It says they have learned certain material to a certain level of mastery. With or without a seminary diploma, it is still the churches who call ordination counsels. It is the churches who ordain ministers. The seminary is essentially a para-church organization that helps men prepare to stand before their churches. The churches are responsible to verify men are "qualified to minister as per scriptural guidelines and not just completed courses and a passing GPA." I don't think that attending seminary has to preclude the mentoring relationship between a pastor and a student, even if the student has relocated to a new church for the duration of seminary.

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Local Church Oversight Changes All That?

It's a long span of time from registration to graduation, so who is overseeing these men to ensure that those who receive a diploma are, in actuality, qualified to minister as per Scriptural guidelines, and not just completed courses and a passing GPA?

Susan,

I am not sure how a church taking direct responsibility for the academics changes what you seemed to be concerned about. Churches should and do bear the responsibility for gaging spiritual qualifications (ordination, for example), though charlatans can just as easily come out of a local church setting as they can the college/seminary model. Any church who is looking for a qualified man to serve in a pastoral capacity should do more than consult the degree-granting institution- anyone who doesn't bears the responsibility of their own folly. Anyone can go out and start their own church, regardless of credentials, and there isn't much that can be done about that in our settings, other than "mark and avoid." 

Regarding ordination, commissioning, and so on- we had a recent example here in Minnesota where a Central MDiv was being sent out of a rural MBA church to oversee a church plant. That church ultimately determined that the seminary grad was not immediately fit for the task, and did not commission him. The man complied with the church, by the way.

I say that to observe that churches should be and are involved, even in the seminary model. It can and does work.

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Diploma not the same as ordination

Susan,

Let me just echo what Chip and Greg said in that I believe you are confusing getting a diploma with local church ordination.  As I said before, Southeastern Seminary trained me and gave me a diploma to say I completed the required education that most churches are looking for, but they had nothing to do with approving me to go into the ministry.  That was done by my pastor and my local church who examined me and ordained me for the ministry.

I know there are mainline denominational models that ordination follows completing your education and the two are linked, but I have never seen that anywhere in Baptist life, whether, independent, Southern, or any conservative non-Baptist churches.