Dave Ramsey and Financial Peace University: the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, Part 1

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Mark Farnham
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Few people today interested in personal money management have not heard the name Dave Ramsey. Ramsey has built an empire of financial counseling that includes a nationally-syndicated radio show, a slot on Fox Business channel, and a NY Times bestseller, The Total Money Makeover. His website claims that over 1,000,000 families have taken Financial Peace University (FPU), his financial class designed to help people take charge of their money. On average, the website claims, attendees pay off $5,300 in debt and save $2,700 in just 90 days. FPU is billed as “a 13-week video curriculum—taught by financial expert Dave Ramsey—that incorporates small-group discussions to encourage accountability and discipleship. Financial Peace University is highly entertaining for everyone, with a unique combination of humor, informative financial advice and biblical messages.”

With such stunning results, it’s easy to understand why so many people are turning to Ramsey for financial advice. Since FPU is marketed to churches (along with other institutions such as businesses and the military), it is worth the effort to examine the program and evaluate it biblically. While Ramsey professes to be a Christian and uses Scripture liberally (in his church version of FPU), I discovered profound problems with the program, both in its content, and in its use by churches as an evangelistic tool. What follows is not a thorough critique, but a general attempt to evaluate the program biblically and theologically, while being as charitable as possible.

The Good

FPU is a professionally-presented, entertaining course of financial management. It does not teach advanced skills such as stock market investing or business finance, but focuses on the individual’s escape from debt and saving for the future. My wife and I learned many invaluable lessons, some of which were reminders, others that were new and crucial.

First, FPU teaches the simplicity and power of saving. Using vivid examples and simple charts, Ramsey shows the power of compound interest (although he presents wildly optimistic interest rates as normal). This taught us that anyone could save a little over many years and gain considerable interest through consistent investing. Also, Ramsey emphasizes living on a written budget, something we had not done so explicitly in the past. This has proven to be one of the most difficult disciplines to master. But Ramsey is right, that if you don’t tell your money what to do, you’ll wonder where it went. Budgeting is simply naming every dollar at the beginning of the month, and assigning it a place. I’ve heard this before, but it was good reminder.

Second, FPU teaches people how to get out of debt. The most powerful testimonials in FPU are those stories of people getting out of massive amounts of debt through the principles learned in the class. I personally know of one person who worked her way out of $60,000 of debt in less than three years through FPU. This alone may make the course worth many times its $100 price tag. Ramsey also gives helpful advice regarding creditors, credit scores, collection agencies and telemarketing.

Third, FPU teaches the inside story of marketing, and how to buy things wisely, with cash, and for a bargain price. He teaches the power of negotiating, even for things you thought had a fixed price. He also teaches invaluable lessons regarding identity theft and what kinds of insurances to buy and not to buy. He gives advice about real estate (Ramsey’s area of expertise), job interviews, retirement, and college savings. Some of the advice in these areas is debatable, but generally helpful. It would be wise to get advice from other sources as well in order to get differing perspectives on these vital areas.

While taking the course, my wife and I were given access to a wide variety of helpful tools through the FPU website. Readers should be aware, however, that once the thirteen weeks are over, many of these services require a subscription fee to continue using. In fact, for many of the topics covered in FPU, Ramsey’s company offers services that require payment once the class has ended, including insurances, financial advice, and identity theft protection. One is quickly reminded that this is a business, not a ministry, even though at times, the “feel” of it is church-like.

For all its benefits regarding financial advice, however, I found several troubling problems with FPU. Before I treat what I consider to be the truly bad elements of FPU, I would like to point out its ugliness first.

The Ugly

It doesn’t take more than a few weeks of exposure to the FPU videos before Ramsey’s arrogance and self-glorification becomes obvious. Dave Ramsey is not a humble man, and I would argue strongly that what some perceive to be his self-confidence is actually a bad case of egotism. After a few weeks of the class, I could barely control my gag reflex anymore when at the beginning of EACH video, all of his accolades (see above) were mentioned AGAIN. No doubt, this bald self-promotion is applauded by the world, but in a Christian atmosphere, it was downright sickening. On the way to FPU class one week I said to my wife in disgust, “I can’t stand to see his face again, and hear him brag about his money.” But this is not the truly ugly aspect of FPU.

The ugliest facet of FPU is actually something internal to me. I can’t really blame Dave Ramsey for this, but FPU does bear some responsibility. I found growing in my heart, after the first few weeks, a subtle materialism and greed I had never experienced before. So much of the advice given in FPU is designed to help people earn the kind of wealth that would free them from ever having to worry about money again. This is a rather explicit message throughout FPU and is reinforced by the oft-repeated mantra, “Live like no one else now, so you can live like no one else later.” The first half of this motto is helpful. It encourages frugality, saving and financial planning, but the second half promotes a lavish lifestyle and self-sufficiency. Audiences are wowed by compound-interest tables showing what it takes to retire with two, five and even eleven million dollars. Ramsey tells story after story of his wealth and what he has been able to purchase in cash, the financial freedom his millions have earned him, and how you too can live this way, thank you very much.

Now, I don’t blame Ramsey entirely for the greed I found being nurtured in my heart. He was simply telling the truth about the amazing power of compound interest. I found myself fantasizing about how comfortably we could live if we could just sock away the recommended amount for the recommended number of years. For a couple weeks my head was in the stars, and all thoughts of sacrificial service and daily bread were gone. I eventually came to recognize my greed and confess it as such. I had tried never to live for money in the past, so why were promises of millions suddenly turning my head at age 43?

There is a clear message throughout FPU—if you are not getting richer, you are a loser. In fact, in one of the videos, Ramsey says as much when he quips that if you are making the same amount of money you did twenty years ago, you are a loser. This is the ugly side of FPU. It knows nothing of sacrifice, of losing one’s life, of taking up one’s cross. It is a theology of glory and power and wealth, not of suffering and humiliation. Money seems to attain godlike status at times in FPU, as if it were the solution to everything. At one point Ramsey claims that having more money means less money fights in a marriage. Really? Are we to believe that wealth by itself has this kind of power?

Another ugly facet of FPU is the wildly optimistic picture Ramsey paints in his descriptions of saving and investing. By taking 12% as the average return on investments, he implies that extreme wealth is a normal result of saving just a little. For example, one table shows that a person would accumulate over $20,000,000 if he invested the cost of his lunch instead of going out to eat. This rather unreal scenario, however, is based on never going out to eat for lunch over a 60-year span (between ages 16 and 76) and earning 12% interest for those 60 years. Ramsey fails to take into consideration the cost of making one’s own lunch, which while minimal in comparison to the $8 a day he allots in the illustration, would still cut into his profit considerably. In another example he compares buying a new car with buying a clunker, but doesn’t consider the added expense of repairs a used car would necessitate.

One last charge of ugliness. FPU is nothing more than brilliant marketing, with a dazzling set, cool graphics and carefully designed elements to make the viewer feel good. Almost none of Ramsey’s material is original; it is merely a collection of financial wisdom packaged for a 21st century video-trained audience. I was flipping through an old Reader’s Digest magazine from April 1998 and found an article entitled “How to Plan for Your Financial Future” by Richard Miniter. Everything of value I learned in thirteen weeks of attending FPU I found in this article. As I said, there is not much original in FPU, just the glitz and glamour.


Mark Farnham is Assistant Professor of Theology and New Testament at Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary (Lansdale, PA). He and his wife, Adrienne, grew up in Connecticut and were married after graduating from Maranatha Baptist Bible College (Watertown, WI). They have two daughters and a son, all teenagers. Mark served as director of youth ministries at Positive Action for Christ (Rocky Mount, NC) right out of seminary and pastored for seven years in New London, Connecticut. He holds an MDiv from Calvary and a ThM in New Testament from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (South Hamilton, MA). He has also studied ancient manuscripts at Harvard Divinity School and philosophy at Villanova University. He is presently a doctoral student at Westminster Theological Seminary (Glenside, PA) in the field of Apologetics. These views do not necessarily reflect those of Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary or its faculty and administration.

Jonathan Charles
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AMEN! Dave Ramsey is the

AMEN! Dave Ramsey is the current "it" thing and I'm supposing that churches are using his material rather than Crown because of Ramsey's name recognition and the draw he will have. It would be very, very poor biblical stewardship to pay a guy $100 to teach me what I can learn from others for free or for much less.

Paul J. Scharf
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Agree to disagree
Mark Farnham wrote:

Almost none of Ramsey's material is original; it is merely a collection of financial wisdom packaged for a 21st century video-trained audience.

Sounds like Mark REALLY did not like FPU, since "the truly bad elements" are still to come. I guess I would just ask, however, if the above quote is correct, how come so many fundamentalist churches and institutions are head-over-heels in debt and giving their constituents (church members and students) a horrible financial example which is lived out every day in their personal lives? Isn't that REAL worldliness?
To put it bluntly, is this widely-known financial wisdom someday going to make it into the financial aid offices of our Christian colleges?
For the sake of full disclosure, I have not officially gone through FPU, although I have listened to the audio version. I have spent scores of hours listening to Dave Ramsey, and my copy of TTMM is marked up like my Bible and other favorite textbooks. I do believe that a case could be made that Mark is, at the very least, giving his own personal interpretation to Ramsey's statements without including any context for someone who has never listened to him.
Personally, I cannot say enough about the benefit I have received from Ramsey's teaching.

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Foundations in Financial Freedom

My 11 yo dd is taking the Foundations course for her Consumer Math credit. She enjoys it thoroughly, and the difference in her perceptions and attitude when we go shopping has been much different- she's very interested in understanding the relation of quality and pricing, and now she doesn't get a case of the 'gimmees' every time we see pretty things. Wink

I think one would have to 1) be seriously lacking in spiritual discernment and/or 2) really immerse themselves in a 'personality' in order to be drastically affected in an adverse way by DR. Too many weak-minded people are looking for a guru- they need a weight-loss exercise guru, a financial guru, a 'feel-good-about-myself' guru, a marriage and family guru, a theology guru... it never seems to end. So I understand the cautions about following someone, in this case Dave Ramsey, wholeheartedly and without reservation. I've not listened to everything he's ever said nor read everything he's ever written- but I think he fills in a gap that exists in many churches and Bible colleges.

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Jim Peet
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Financial conservatism is not rocket science

Any kid whose parents grew up in the great depression learned it thoroughly

I don't have a bone to pick with Ramsey but I don't think it is up to the church to sponsor his events.

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Correction
Mark Farnham wrote:

In fact, for many of the topics covered in FPU, Ramsey's company offers services that require payment once the class has ended, including insurances, financial advice, and identity theft protection.

Honestly, this statement makes me wonder if Mark, who is above reproach as a theologian, is qualified to write these articles on Dave Ramsey, since this statement is a major gaffe which serves to put Ramsey in a very negative light.
Ramsey's company does not sell insurance or identity theft protection. For details, one can simply go to the home page of www.daveramsey.com.

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Jonathan Charles
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What is there to "get" about

What is there to "get" about stewardship? Spend less than you make. If you are in debt, make draconian cuts to get your expenses down. My problem with material like Ramsey's is that it doesn't deal with the core of the issue: the human heart and its sinful bent towards coveteousness and a lack of contentedness. Is a person spiritually better off to be debt free and be boasting about their wealth than to be in debt? I don't think so.

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Always be a Berean

My direct experience with Ramsey has been limited to his radio and TV shows; my wife has taken his FPU course. I have a number of friends who are Ramsey aficionados, and I have noticed many of them are totally focused on money, and judge one's spirituality by the amount of money you have put away or whether or not you buy cars with cash. I have to agree with the other commenters that his advice is good to help people think about their finances in a correct way, but we always need to be careful and remember that Scripture alone is our ultimate guide book, and Jesus tells us to seek His kingdom first and all these earthly things will be added as He sees fit.

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Wayne Wilson
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Let's be fair...

I haven't taken the course, and find the razzle dazzle a little off-putting. I did see one video shown in our men's group that was completely devoted to using that extra money you save to minister to other people. Giving, not just to the church, but to those in need, seems to be a big emphasis of Ramsey. That side needs to be mentioned, and maybe that's the dream Mark should have about his later years. Also, people I know that have taken the course are indeed generally much more frugal and wise in their use of money. Being wise, and that leading to some level of prosperity in the later years seems to me to be very much the counsel of Solomon in Proverbs.

Jason Boling
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Crude language

My only personal experience with Dave is his daily radio program. To be honest, I have been really turned off due to his crude language. I'm not sure if this shows up in FPU, but I really expected something better from him. Sure, some of his ideas and advise are spot on, but I have found it difficult to listen to someone who uses such language. It seems so beneath what he is trying to accomplish...unless he is trying to come across as "your everyday kinda guy".

FWIW, I now change the station when he is on.

Susan R
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Financial nuts and bolts
Jonathan Charles wrote:

What is there to "get" about stewardship? Spend less than you make. If you are in debt, make draconian cuts to get your expenses down. My problem with material like Ramsey's is that it doesn't deal with the core of the issue: the human heart and its sinful bent towards coveteousness and a lack of contentedness...

It may seem intuitive if someone is well-grounded in Scripture, but the reality is that quite a few people are NOT well-grounded in Scripture, and don't know enough about finances to write a check, much less balance a budget. I've known young people who've had to have their paychecks explained to them because even after taking Consumer Math in high school, they didn't know the difference between net and gross, or what FICA is. They are shocked at how much comes out of their paycheck in taxes. "What? I have to pay federal, state, and local? When did that happen?" The cluelessness about how to deal with money is wide-spread and pervasive.

Maybe in some churches the principles of financial stewardship are taught and issues of covetousness and greed are being addressed, but for people who've never received any teaching about the mechanics of stewardship, there is still a real need. DR and Crown and other people/ministries fill that need. DR is not a pastor/preacher. The website clearly states that their emphasis is "reducing, avoiding, and eliminating debt". His presentation is very entertaining- but so what? I guess I just don't know why people get upset when someone fills a gap and makes money from it. I'm all for people getting paid for providing information and services, even Christians.

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Responses to Jonathan and Susan
Jonathan Charles wrote:

What is there to "get" about stewardship? Spend less than you make. If you are in debt, make draconian cuts to get your expenses down...Is a person spiritually better off to be debt free and be boasting about their wealth than to be in debt? I don't think so.

Jonathan,

Do you think that message will carry water with someone who just lost his house in foreclosure?

The second line offers a false choice. Is a person spiritually better off to be out of debt than in debt? Absolutely. The message is simple to be sure, but as Dave says, it is "a concept that Congress (and, I would add, college admissions counselors and lots of church leaders) can't grasp."

Quoting Susan: "I guess I just don't know why people get upset when someone fills a gap and makes money from it."
In general this can be a tactic to use when one is either guilty of his own shortcomings, or else threatened by either the principles or success of someone else.

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GregH
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Nauseating

I agree with the original article. I sat through most of Ramsey's class last year. It is not hard to see what Mark is referring to.

First, here is what is good about Ramsey. He helps people get excited about paying down debt, saving, and managing their finances.

Here is the bad:

1) He portrays himself in an extremely arrogant way.

2) He puts an unnatural amount of emphasis on growing wealth. It feels anything but Christian regardless of how many Bible verses he quotes. And I really believe (based on my experience) that people often come away thinking about money in a less Christian way (more materialistic or viewing money as a solution to problems.)

3) His financial advice is often just wrong and probably dangerous to some people.

To be more specific, I would point to his examples about home mortgages. He advocates a 15 year mortgage rather than a 30 year. He gives a chart that shows that if you pay a few hundred more dollars/month and get the 15 year mortgage, you will save tens of thousands of dollars in interest over 30 years.

What he conveniently leaves out is opportunity cost of the extra few hundred dollars/month. If that money was invested well, it is highly likely that it would at grow at least enough to cover the interest expense. It is quite conceivable that someone will come out ahead with a 30 year mortgage if you look at all the factors.

The example in the article about taking a lunch to work is a good example of bad data as well.

I am all for paying off debt. But doing it too aggressively could be dangerous, especially in the economic situations we have now. Let's say someone decided to use every scrap of cash and pay off a HELOC. If they pay off $5K in 2010, the bank is likely to reduce their limit by $5K. Now they have no cash and no way to get the $5K back on the HELOC. What happens if they lose their job? (Yes, Ramsey says have an emergency fund, but not big enough for the times we are in right now.)

4) Ramsey uses the church to market his stuff. Almost anybody that sells anything knows how valuable a church can be. That is why we all have people trying to sell us knives and tupperware and makeup everytime we go to church. Ramsey has capitalized on this brilliantly. He sprinkles in enough Bible verses to get the churches to run infomercials disguised as seminars for him and then charges participants a few hundred dollars. If you like it enough, you can go to his more advanced seminars or his small business seminars which cost thousands of dollars.

Ramsey has basically found out a way to use church for advertising. The marketing plan is brilliant. But the church needs to know it is being badly used.

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intuitiveness of finances
Susan R wrote:

It may seem intuitive if someone is well-grounded in Scripture…

spending less than you make is just good math that even unbelievers should be able to understand. there are also lots of financial counselors/advisers who have no religious backdrop to their plan at all. they still are able to help people get out of bad financial situations and learn to manage their money.

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Wow, Greg

Greg,

Your post (#12) is a great advertisement for why we need FPU so desperately. Your advice under point three is extremely dangerous.

Further, your criticisms of Ramsey are mostly highly subjective and personal without concrete examples. I could not disagree with you more.

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Mark Farnham
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Ramsey DOES sell services
Quote:

Honestly, this statement makes me wonder if Mark, who is above reproach as a theologian, is qualified to write these articles on Dave Ramsey, since this statement is a major gaffe which serves to put Ramsey in a very negative light.
Ramsey's company does not sell insurance or identity theft protection. For details, one can simply go to the home page of www.daveramsey.com.

Correction needed here. I OWN identity theft insurance from Dave Ramsey's spin-off company, Zander Insurance. So yes, he does indeed sell a multitude of services through shell companies, but they are all ultimately part of Ramsey's financial empire. I have no problem with this, and chose his I.D. theft insurance over other similar products because I thought it was the best deal. But in the interest of full disclosure, people ought to know the connection.

Mark

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Shell companies?

Mark,

Do you have proof that these are "shell" or "spin-off" companies connected with Ramsey other than through his endorsements and through advertising? If "people ought to know the connection," we need to see proof that there is a connection. These seem to be serious allegations, since Ramsey does not represent those companies in that way.

Quote from www.zanderins.com:

"Zander Insurance Group®, Dave Ramsey's choice for term life, disability insurance, and Identity Theft Protection, has been serving its customers for over 80 years."

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The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
I speak through www.IMISOS.org.

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'Religious' is a bad thing?
ChrisC wrote:
Susan R wrote:

It may seem intuitive if someone is well-grounded in Scripture…

spending less than you make is just good math that even unbelievers should be able to understand. there are also lots of financial counselors/advisers who have no religious backdrop to their plan at all. they still are able to help people get out of bad financial situations and learn to manage their money.

So a Christian teaching financial planning from a Christian perspective is a bad thing? Sure- one could learn the 'math' of income to debt ratio- but what about the Biblical principles that apply to good stewardship? The lost world can't discern or teach those things, and I don't believe in the artificial separation of sacred and secular- for a Christian, everything has eternal impact.

I don't understand why Christians shouldn't market their products or services to other Christians. From books to Bible colleges, the church is a fine place for people to find out what has been a help to other Christians, and to obtain those materials.

Bottom line IMO- From Ramsey to MacArthur to Piper to Spurgeon- you take what lines up with Scripture and is beneficial to you, and leave the rest.

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Mark Farnham
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Zander and Dave Ramsey

Paul has pointed out a legitimate gaffe on my part. What I perceived to be a Dave Ramsey owned company (Zander) may merely be a paid advertiser of the Dave Ramsey show (I can't seem to confirm if Ramsey has any financial investment in the company). Thanks, Paul, for that correction. I still have concern, however, over Ramsey's promotion of a specific provider for these services as he is perhaps recieiving commission from Zander for promoting their product on his show. He could merely recommend certain kinds of products wthout endorsing one specific company. Otherwise I don't know whether the product is truly the best product.

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Advertising

OK- so now Christians should not be paid to advertise products they want to endorse? Christians shouldn't work on commission? I am really just trying to figure out what it is people are objecting to, and if they apply these objections across the board.

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Barry L.
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I did go to your link and he

I did go to your link and he is hocking all that stuff mentioned and more. My guess is he's getting paid handsomely for those endorsements. Watching his show he's definitely not a humble person. If another tv evangelist made as much as him he would be ridiculed.

Having said that, I think Dave Ramsey is doing a great service and it would be good if Christians followed alot of his principles. I think you get the same info from Crown ministries.

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Paul J. Scharf
Paul J. Scharf wrote:
Jonathan Charles wrote:

What is there to "get" about stewardship? Spend less than you make. If you are in debt, make draconian cuts to get your expenses down...Is a person spiritually better off to be debt free and be boasting about their wealth than to be in debt? I don't think so.

Jonathan,

Do you think that message will carry water with someone who just lost his house in foreclosure?

The second line offers a false choice. Is a person spiritually better off to be out of debt than in debt? Absolutely. The message is simple to be sure, but as Dave says, it is "a concept that Congress (and, I would add, college admissions counselors and lots of church leaders) can't grasp."

Those certainly aren't the only choices. But coming from what Mark and others have experienced, Ramsey presents 2 choices: be in debt or get out of debt and strive for wealth. Does Ramsey present some other choices like "get out of debt, but God may want you to be content and live paycheck to paycheck the rest of your life?" I didn't say that it is better to be in debt than out of debt, I said that it is no better to be out of debt and greedily striving for wealth than to be in debt.

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GregH wrote: Ramsey has
GregH wrote:

Ramsey has basically found out a way to use church for advertising. The marketing plan is brilliant. But the church needs to know it is being badly used.

Will my church get a commission or kickback from Ramsey Inc. for serving up to him my members as his customers?

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Paul J. Scharf
Paul J. Scharf wrote:

Greg,

Your post (#12) is a great advertisement for why we need FPU so desperately. Your advice under point three is extremely dangerous.

Further, your criticisms of Ramsey are mostly highly subjective and personal without concrete examples. I could not disagree with you more.

What is dangerous? Choosing a 30 year mortgage rather than a 15 year? Choosing to maximize cash rather than pay off debt?

You may not agree, but dangerous?

Tell me why. I am all ears...

Don Johnson
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money, money, money
Susan R wrote:

I don't understand why Christians shouldn't market their products or services to other Christians. From books to Bible colleges, the church is a fine place for people to find out what has been a help to other Christians, and to obtain those materials.

KJV Matthew 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

NAU 1 Corinthians 9:18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

Obviously that is not to say that money is not a part of church life, or we shouldn't pay ministers, or we shouldn't make books and the like available via bookrooms or tables, etc.

But there is something wrong with making the church a marketplace. And that would include well known 'names' who only appear if a minimum financial return is guaranteed.

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Larry
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Several thoughts: I have only

Several thoughts:

I have only listened to DR a little bit here and there, and haven't read anything by him, but it seems like a general financial advice program. I don't hear anything distinctively Christian about it, and not sure how it would be different from the run of the mill financial advice program from a unbelieving standpoint. Mark's comments, both good and bad, resonate with me so far.

I think much of what he says is debateable. It's not as cut and dried as he makes it out to be. Being debt free is not always the best thing. I have had one loan in my life for my first car that I paid off in a 1 1/2 years (instead of three). In twenty years of having a credit card, I have carried a balance over less time than you can count on two hands (aside from 0% interest promotions). I think debt is silly. I am not sure how investing $300 a month to pay off a 4.75% mortgage is better than investing that $300 at 7% and also taking a tax deduction on the mortgage. I think that argument can go either way.

Here's some numbers for consideration/correction (feel free to tell me where my math is wrong, or right).

Quote:

Term of the loan: 30 Years | Loan amount: $100,000.00 | Interest rate: 5.000%

  • Starting date of the loan: May, 2010 Monthly mortgage payments: $536.82
Prepayments
  • Monthly prepayments of $300.00 beginning from May, 2010, last payment in May, 2040
Calculation Results
  • Total interest paid over the life of the loan (no pre-payment): $93,255.79
  • Total interest paid over the life of the loan (with pre-payment): $38,662.73
Your Savings:
  • Total interest saved: $54,593.06
  • 16 years and 2 months shorter loan

So by prepaying $300 a month you have saved 54,593.06. If you then invest the 836 at 7% for the next 14 years, you end up with 238,839.81. Add those together, you have 293,432.87.

Take that same $300 a month prepayment and invest it at 7% over the same 30 years and you end up with $368,126.25.

So, all things being equal, paying your mortgage off early cost you about 75,000 dollars over thirty years. That's a pretty substantial loss isn't it?

I think even if your mortgage rate and investment rate are the same (5%) you still come out ahead slightly be investing the 300 and carrying the mortgage to full term.

Plus those numbers don't account for the tax deduction of mortgage interest. It also doesn't account for appreciation (which will come back some over time, but hopefully never to where it was).

So DR may argue legitimately that being free from mortgage debt is liberating in that no one can kick you out of your home and foreclose (which is true). But I am not sure that it is an ironclad financial argument. It seems to me that the "piece of mind" for having a paid off mortgage will cost you about 75,000 dollars. Is that worth it?

Other things he has said make me raise my eyebrows in curiosity.

Lastly, to Susan and the ad revenue for endorsement, I think the point is once someone is getting paid to say something is good, there is at least the possibility that they are persuaded by money and not the product. I imagine he can't recommend another service as better.

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Ramsey language

Disclaimer up front: I have never watched Ramsey on TV, nor have I taken the FPU course.

A friend of mine is an assistant pastor in a large conservative Southern Baptist church in our city. Part of his responsibilities include counseling church members with debt/finances issues. He had heard Ramsey speak, and asked the senior pastor if Ramsey could come in and take a Sunday night service to speak on family finances, with a view to possibly bringing in the FPU course in small group settings. The senior pastor refused to give him an answer without knowing more about Ramsey, and told the assistant to give him some time to do some research on Ramsey. Within a month the senior pastor happened to catch Ramsey on TV, and heard him use foul language. The senior pastor told his assistant that under no circumstances would Ramsey ever appear on the platform of his church.

I'd agree with others here that Ramsey is not appropriate in church settings. However, there is a huge unmet need for financial counseling, as both young and older marriages are being severely strained with all kinds of financial problems, they are embarrassed to even talk about it. and they don't know where to turn. I am familiar with Crown Ministries, and have urged people to use their resources.

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Thanks Mark

Mark,

Thank you for the correction (#18).

I certainly respect your right -- or anyone's right -- to have a different opinion about Dave Ramsey than I do. Further, there certainly is room to critique, or even dislike, some of his programs, presentations and methodology. Ramsey is certainly not a Biblical counselor or a Bible expositor, nor does he claim to be, and he has not altered my views of the Bible or the Christian life -- with the possible exception of my awareness of the seriousness of debt.

I personally dislike some of his Christian associations, and agree that his language on the radio gets a bit too colorful at times.

What I do not get is the antagonism which flows from people, such as in the above posts, especially when they basically admit that they know very little about Ramsey or have never even listened to him, or when they are willing to go on the record with statements like "my guess is." That kind of thing does not fly, especially on a fundamentalist Web site. Perhaps it is a reaction against people who love Ramsey so much -- who have "drunk the Kool-Aid" Smile

If someone has a specific charge to bring against Ramsey or has tried his program and found it wanting -- fine! If someone does not care for him, my advice is that they not listen. If there is a better program out there, let's hear about it. Speculation and guessing, however, are very dangerous, and criticisms based on Ramsey's personal wealth are out of bounds. Some people talk as if the whole program is a money-making scheme foisted on mindless, gullible Christians. That is such a ludicrous charge because it is antithetical to Ramsey's entire program. It really demonstrates little more than the ignorance of the person making the claim.

Ramsey is not my "guru." Rather, he is like my personal "football coach" coming through my earphones late at night and inspiring me toward excellence and working toward freedom from the bondage of debt. I have learned more about finances from him -- sadly -- than from any other source. I highly recommend his teaching and resources.

And I listen to many more sermons each week than I do Dave Ramsey broadcasts.

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I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
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GregH
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Larry wrote: I think much of
Larry wrote:

I think much of what he says is debateable. It's not as cut and dried as he makes it out to be. Being debt free is not always the best thing. I have had one loan in my life for my first car that I paid off in a 1 1/2 years (instead of three). In twenty years of having a credit card, I have carried a balance over less time than you can count on two hands (aside from 0% interest promotions). I think debt is silly. I am not sure how investing $300 a month to pay off a 4.75% mortgage is better than investing that $300 at 7% and also taking a tax deduction on the mortgage. I think that argument can go either way.

Here's some numbers for consideration/correction (feel free to tell me where my math is wrong, or right).

Quote:

Term of the loan: 30 Years | Loan amount: $100,000.00 | Interest rate: 5.000%

  • Starting date of the loan: May, 2010 Monthly mortgage payments: $536.82
Prepayments
  • Monthly prepayments of $300.00 beginning from May, 2010, last payment in May, 2040
Calculation Results
  • Total interest paid over the life of the loan (no pre-payment): $93,255.79
  • Total interest paid over the life of the loan (with pre-payment): $38,662.73
Your Savings:
  • Total interest saved: $54,593.06
  • 16 years and 2 months shorter loan

So by prepaying $300 a month you have saved 54,593.06. If you then invest the 836 at 7% for the next 14 years, you end up with 238,839.81. Add those together, you have 293,432.87.

Take that same $300 a month prepayment and invest it at 7% over the same 30 years and you end up with $368,126.25.

So, all things being equal, paying your mortgage off early cost you about 75,000 dollars over thirty years. That's a pretty substantial loss isn't it?

I think even if your mortgage rate and investment rate are the same (5%) you still come out ahead slightly be investing the 300 and carrying the mortgage to full term.

Plus those numbers don't account for the tax deduction of mortgage interest. It also doesn't account for appreciation (which will come back some over time, but hopefully never to where it was).

So DR may argue legitimately that being free from mortgage debt is liberating in that no one can kick you out of your home and foreclose (which is true). But I am not sure that it is an ironclad financial argument. It seems to me that the "piece of mind" for having a paid off mortgage will cost you about 75,000 dollars. Is that worth it?

Yes Larry, I was too lazy to write out an actual example, but you have demonstrated why the 30 yr vs 15 yr is at least debatable.

The whole concept of "peace of mind" in regards to debt free does not resonate with me. I have had various stages of financial success during my life. I know what it is like to pay cash for cars and I have taken out loans for cars. Whether I had loans outstanding or not has not affected my peace of mind.

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Which Propagandist Should I Believe?

First, I'll offer a rejoinder to the article itself. Then engage in the conversations that have followed.

@Mark

Frankly, which propagandist should I believe—Dave Ramsey or you?

Though you offered a "good" section, it was fraught with disclaimers about its elements. One example is the second paragraph under "The Good" where you proclaimed that his rate was "wildly optimistic" yet you failed to demonstrate how your claim. So why should I grant you your superlative and not DR his?

Along with that paragraph on savings (and elsewhere), you failed to mention the disclaimers that DR himself gives throughout his presentation—e.g. that the investments should only be in growth-stock mutual funds with at least a ten year track record.

Finally, regarding the "good" section, what elements of FPU ever indicate that what it does is a ministry—nevermind the presupposition that ministries should not do what they do to make money. Why would I ever think such a thing. Of course its a business! The way you couches your comments casts a disparaging light on the business of FPU.

Regarding the "ugly" section, you say that you would "argue strongly" that DR is arrogant rather than self-confident. But why didn't you? What's the difference?

When you recall your conversation with your wife about how much DR exasperates you, it seems like DR opens up his checkbook and says "see how much money I have." When in truth, he never comes close to that.

When you speak of the "living like no one else now . . ." mantra as leading to a greedy outlook on money, you fail to note how much DR emphasizes giving sacrificially. Or that he places giving above everything else in the budgeting process!

Regarding the ugliness of marketing, why is it ugly to market something well? Shall I look at Calvary's website, with its dazzling setting, cool graphics and carefully designed elements to "sell" the seminary and conclude that it's ugly? Also, I don't recall DR claiming that the content of his presentation was original. Indeed, he quotes other frequently—Zig Zigler and Larry Burkett to name a few.

You didn't appreciate FPU, we get it. But what were you doing with this post. You acknowledge in the opening paragraph that most people probably know about DR. So, are you telling all of us that we are unwise to heed his advice or subscribe to his methods? Or are you trying to warn those who have never heard of DR that they should proceed with caution? Either way I don't believe you have been fair.

Bob T.
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Financial Peace ?

Well, we need to admire the way many do handle finances.

Dave Ramsey declared Bankruptcy due to the failure of Ramsey Investments. Then he starts teaching people in his church how to handle finances. He begins to read and go to financial seminars. Begins to put together his own financial presentation and promote his own expertise. He is evidently a great marketer. He probably now has no debts as he is making millions telling you how to have no debts. Can he really earn money and live debt free and successfully financially in the real world? Who knows! Those who can do. Those who can't teach.

There has been Larry Burkett, Ron Blue, and now Dave Ramsey. Throw in Suzy Orman as the present secular option. They appear to have similarities to their advice. I purchased a couple Larry Burkett books and two Ron Blue's books cheap used. Good common sense advice. I have watched Dave Ramsey occasionally and will purchase a couple of his books if available used and real cheap.

The best financial advice would be to save money and avoid all seminars of any kind. That includes, church growth, spiritual life, Pastoral, and counseling. Buy any available books offered by those giving seminars when they are available used and cheap. Almost all have some advice that may good and some that may be questionable. If I had followed Larry Burkett concerning the coming financial disaster, I would have lost a lot on investments. He was right about the coming disaster but off by over 20 years. In between was a prospering financial and real estate market.

It is interesting that in America we often have people becoming experts through failure. Get a divorce and write a book about divorce recovery. Then follow up with one about holding marriages together. Get caught in immorality and write a book about how to to recover and forgive. Get caught living as a Homosexual and write a book about the struggle of recovery. Usually these people do well financially after the failure as they tell you and I about it.

I wouldn't waste the time or money on "Financial Peace University." You will have financial peace in the coming blessings of Heaven and the Kingdom. Study about that. Take all the free financial advice about the present life but get it from many sources, pray, and make no one your Guru on the subject.

ChrisC
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financial planning from a Christian perspective
Susan R wrote:

So a Christian teaching financial planning from a Christian perspective is a bad thing?

i wouldn't say it's a bad thing... maybe just an extra thing. a christian perspective should define the believer's priorities, but the priorities can be defined by someone other than a financial planner. any financial planner should be able to start with an individual's priorities (christian or not) and come to a sensible spending/savings plan.

really, i think there's a little too much of x "from a christian perspective" being better than x. i don't need to take a special class on x "from a christian perspective". i should be able to apply my christian perspective to a normal class on x.

besides, explaining the "christian perspective" part of finances could be done in 5 or 10 minutes. comparing the risks and benefits of various financial vehicles will take a lot longer.

Paul J. Scharf
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Purpose of the article
Matthew Olmstead wrote:

You didn't appreciate FPU, we get it. But what were you doing with this post. You acknowledge in the opening paragraph that most people probably know about DR. So, are you telling all of us that we are unwise to heed his advice or subscribe to his methods? Or are you trying to warn those who have never heard of DR that they should proceed with caution? Either way I don't believe you have been fair.

Matthew,

I like Mark a lot, so I do not take pleasure in ripping the article, but I have to say I agree with your statement in that the article seems to lack a coherent purpose, other than being Mark's random thoughts about FPU, and has a strong negative tone. My fear is that someone reading it who does NOT know about Dave Ramsey may be turned off from considering his advice and programs, which would be very sad.

I would have much preferred a thorough, Biblical critique of Ramsey's counsel in light of the Biblical text (including insights from the original languages) -- wherever such a critique would lead.

Otherwise, it is very subjective -- and one's experience in FPU might be influenced by everything from the season of the year in which he took the class to the behavior of the person he sat next to.

__________________

The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
I speak through www.IMISOS.org.

Susan R
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Like anything else

OK- there are people/companies who provide resources on subjects about which they claim expertise. It is up to us as individuals to do some research and weigh these materials against what we know the Word of God teaches and what our own needs/weaknesses are. No one forces any of us to choose one person/method/ideology over another. I tend to use Clark Howard the most for financial advice, but I still look around at what Suze, Dave Ramsey, Crown, Larry Burkett, or the Motley Fool advise.

However, there is a difference IMO from offering books in the bookstore and having someone speak in the pulpit. There is a big difference, IMO. I am sure that there are pastors who would offer/recommend books for their members but not have the author in the pulpit. Our pastor once recommended The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands (among others) to ladies in the church looking for a book about marriage, but we'd not have Dr. Laura come and speak to the ladies. It is IMO an understandable, if difficult to define, distinction.

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Jack
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Free Resources

When I lived near Atlanta, I regularly listened to Clark Howard on an AM radio station. I think he's now on CNN. After moving away, I picked up a book by John Bogle, founder of Vanguard Mutual Funds. Is there anything to Dave Ramsey that I wouldn't pick up from these guys? I can't imagine there is too much information Ramsey has that isn't available from these (or other) free resources.

Aaron Blumer
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Money and passion

Folks get passionate about money in a hurry!

My take: haven't taken the FPU course or anything but a couple of us at church were looking into a personal finance thing of some sort several months ago as an outreach. Someone mentioned Ramsey, whom I'd never heard of before. Checked his website and did not find it attractive. To me, an organization that is about frugality should look frugal. Smile

But, on the other hand, it may well be that the glamor and glitz factor is exactly what's needed to sell financial sobriety to those who need it most. Think about it: who needs sound financial advice the most, those who are dazzled by fancy marketing or those who don't believe anything they see in an ad? I'm thinking the first group. So if you want to really get this way of thinking to that group, maybe you have to use what they find most persuasive: glamor and glitz.

I hear these ads on the radio when I'm driving around (not Ramsey ads)... the "You can get rich if you order our free book on financial secrets!!!!!!" or "You can work from home just a couple of hours a week and make thousands a week and quit your job!!!" And I always wonder, who believes this stuff and dials the 800 number? Apparently plenty do.
I'm inclined to think Ramsey is just the ticket for them.

Edit: BTW, I have the ultimate identity theft protection service. It's so powerful and secret that I'm not allowed to tell you who it is in a public forum. But if you call my 800 number now, I'll let you in my secret ABSOLUTELY FREE! Yes, that's right. Free. My information is so valuable, I'm giving it away to the first 500 callers!

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Jack wrote: When I lived near
Jack wrote:

When I lived near Atlanta, I regularly listened to Clark Howard on an AM radio station. I think he's now on CNN. After moving away, I picked up a book by John Bogle, founder of Vanguard Mutual Funds. Is there anything to Dave Ramsey that I wouldn't pick up from these guys? I can't imagine there is too much information Ramsey has that isn't available from these (or other) free resources.

My mom was a Clark Howard fan for years and years. Now she's starting to listen to DR but she just told me within the last week how he talks as if he made up the "envelope" system. I chuckled because we have a 60 yo lady in our church who uses that method and she's never had schooling past 8th grade and she doesn't speak English. She's tried to explain it to ladies around her who will listen, but most won't. (the ones who need it most).

In 2008 when we last visited the states, we noticed that the Rick Warren "purpose driven" thing seemed to have calmed down. I asked my sister in GA (a pastor's wife) what was the "newest" fad. She said, in Oct., 2008, that it seemed to be the financial seminars at the churches.

I've probably heard him on the radio. I have no bad thing to say about him, but it is irritating when someone comes across as "righteous" because they've hit it big with a wonderful marketing pitch.

I appreciate www.getrichslowly.com as a financial blog of someone who doesn't claim to know it all, but is learning (JD) as he goes. He's not a Christian, though, but a lot of his readers are because you tell by the comments.

Jonathan Charles
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I Googled "Financial Peace"

I Googled "Financial Peace" and "Baptist Church" and found a baptist church in Sioux Falls that offers Ramsey's course in the spring and Crown Financial's course in the fall. Ramsey's course is $95 while Crown's is $45. Probably alot of the same content on a 13-week format. Where is the extra $50 going? To support a for-profit business. If biblical stewardship is the aim here, why are churches guiding cash-strapped parishioners to pay double for Ramsey's course (because he is the "it" guy). Take that $50 and invest it with interest compounded quarterly over a 40 year period at Ramsey's generous 12% and after 40 years you will have $4,652.55. Give that extra $50 to Ramsey and a significant portion of it will go in his pocket and compound interest for him.

Bob T.
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Thank you Mark.

I think this is a good article on a needed subject that needs more exposure and discussion. It will be interesting to see where this leads.
Thanks to Mark for his thoughts on the subject. Smile

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If it's worth it

If the FPU course will benefit someone, then the extra $50 is well spent. All they have to do to afford it is not eat at McDonald's for a month. Wink

I happily support Christian for-profit businesses all the time, and don't see why Christians are vilified when they have professionally slick presentations or make money providing services and products that people need or want. It seems we are always griping about the lack of quality and professionalism in Christian media- then one comes along who's successful, and angels forfend- he's too successful.

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GregH
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Susan R wrote:If the FPU
Susan R wrote:

If the FPU course will benefit someone, then the extra $50 is well spent. All they have to do to afford it is not eat at McDonald's for a month. Wink

I happily support Christian for-profit businesses all the time, and don't see why Christians are vilified when they have professionally slick presentations or make money providing services and products that people need or want. It seems we are always griping about the lack of quality and professionalism in Christian media- then one comes along who's successful, and angels forfend- he's too successful.

Well, first I am not sure about the quality or professionalism of Ramsey. Some of what he teaches is dubious and most of the rest is common sense that you can read 100 places online for free. I will give him credit for his 10 baby steps. Packaging things that way makes it seem easier for people to follow. And I will give him credit for the people that have been helped.

But one's money is insigificant when compared to his/her attitude about money. And that is where I think the problem is. I don't think Ramsey's teaching always helps people think right about money.

Look at his own kids for an example. In the course, he tells how he has a deal with them where he will match them dollar for dollar so they can buy their first car (for cash of course) at the age of 16. The first one spent a modest amount on a car (maybe $15K) but the second was bragging about how expensive a car she was able to afford. I seem to remember it being more than any car I bought before I was 30.

I found myself wondering what lessons they have learned. Even without Dave Ramsey for a dad, I knew I didn't have to have an expensive first car while I was still in school. And my parents certainly would not have incentivized me to overspend on a first car.

Ramsey's prevalent theme is sacrifice now so you can spend later. He brags over and over about his stuff but says it is OK if you have cash. I think he is settling for second best. The happiest person is not one that can walk through a mall and know they can buy anything they want. The happiest person is one who can walk through a mall and not see anything they want in the first place.

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Susan R wrote:If the FPU
Susan R wrote:

If the FPU course will benefit someone, then the extra $50 is well spent. All they have to do to afford it is not eat at McDonald's for a month. Wink

Is Ramsey's course superior to Crown's? Is a student paying for the fact that a Christian celebrity stands behind it? I support Christian businesses, but I don't want them coming into my church to solicit customers. If I were to preach a 13-week series on stewardship and one of my motives in it was my personal profit in receiving more tithes and offerings as a result and the possibility that my pay might increase, what would you think of such a motive? You would rightly condemnt it. How can that not be part of Ramsey's motive? The motto from his "careers" link on his web site is: "If we help enough people, we never have to worry about money." What if I privately said, "If I preach enough on biblical stewardship, I'll never have to worry about money"? I think some of you have gone to sleep, discernment-wise, with this guy. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid!

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Immersed

I think how any teacher affects their 'students' is related to how much the person immerses themselves in the personality of the teacher. Most folks are going to take the information they find helpful and chuck the rest. They aren't going to try to 'become' Dave Ramsey. Ramsey's delivery and methods are an aspect of his personality, IMO, and not a marketing gimmick. I know people just like him... as a matter of fact, I think I'm married to one.

Someone mentioned earlier that confidence to one person looks like arrogance to someone else. Maybe excitement about what he's accomplished translates into bragging- I don't know, because I've only seen the materials and courses that I've purchased, and I haven't seen anything I'd object to yet on the grounds of inciting greed or boasting of wealth.

There are LOTS of free materials out there- but how many people go looking for it? Few people will do that kind of work to save money, especially if they already have issues in that department. An example I can speak of is homeschooling- I've home educated my kids for over 15 years and spent an average of $150 per year (for four kids) because I buy used books, scour the internet for free resources, and use the library. Most of the homeschoolers I know buy packaged curriculum to the tune of $400 to $850 per child- and that's textbooks, not DVD or satellite. It's what they want and what they can afford, and it's no skin off my nose.

Dave Ramsey has a useful product for people who have debt issues, and he emphasizes the Biblical principles I want my kids to embrace. It doesn't mean we have to join the Dave Ramsey Fan Club and have FPU tattooed on our foreheads though.

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Paul J. Scharf
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Not worth answering the charges

There is so much false information and speculation flying around here from people who have obviously not listened to Ramsey enough to know what they are talking about that it is not worth answering the false charges. I would only say that Crown and Ramsey each promote each other, so if you have such a beef with Ramsey, perhaps you should take it up with Crown.
(Incidentally, Clark Howard and Ramsey are also good friends.)
If you do not understand a person and his program, I would suggest that it would be better to abstain from commenting rather than to spout foolishness.
If you do not like Ramsey, that is fine, but some of these comments are just silly. They do not deserve a response.

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The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
I speak through www.IMISOS.org.

Susan R
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Put down the hyperbole
Jonathan Charles wrote:
Susan R wrote:

If the FPU course will benefit someone, then the extra $50 is well spent. All they have to do to afford it is not eat at McDonald's for a month. Wink

Is Ramsey's course superior to Crown's? Is a student paying for the fact that a Christian celebrity stands behind it? I support Christian businesses, but I don't want them coming into my church to solicit customers. If I were to preach a 13-week series on stewardship and one of my motives in it was my personal profit in receiving more tithes and offerings as a result and the possibility that my pay might increase, what would you think of such a motive? You would rightly condemnt it. How can that not be part of Ramsey's motive? The motto from his "careers" link on his web site is: "If we help enough people, we never have to worry about money." What if I privately said, "If I preach enough on biblical stewardship, I'll never have to worry about money"? I think some of you have gone to sleep, discernment-wise, with this guy. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid!

Ramsey is not a pastor and doesn't pretend to be. I didn't say that pastors should invite Ramsey into their church. I don't think someone's success should condemn them to be dismissed as a 'celebrity'. I don't know what Ramsey's motives are- he hasn't called to tell me, and the phone lines are down at the Psychic Friends Network. I think maybe some of us know how to take what benefits us and leave the rest.

Accusing people who don't agree 100% with you of 'drinking the Kool-Aid' is just, like, SO not cool.

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Approaching the last lecture

Our church family is soon approaching the last lecture in an adult class. Looking forward to that last lecture on giving.

P.S. - Though I do not have his personality, Dave Ramsey has made me laugh.

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Perhaps S/I needs another review of Ramsey
Paul J. Scharf wrote:

There is so much false information and speculation flying around here from people who have obviously not listened to Ramsey enough to know what they are talking about

Perhaps S/I needs another review of Ramsey from another who has attended his seminary. Like a point - counterpoint view of things!

Jonathan Charles
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Accusing people who don't

Just having fun; calm down.

Aaron Blumer
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Profit and such

FWIW, there's nothing unChristian about making a profit on a service people find helpful. I don't envy Mr. Ramsey his material success in the least. Good for him.
I suspect that Farnham is right that all the really good info has been available from other sources for years. But, as I mentioned before (though not in so many words) is part of the product. For some, the packaging is a turn off, for others it's probably indispensable. They would not pay attention to anything less dramatic and stimulating.

The fact that some places do both Ramsey and Crown maybe bears that out.

Paul, if you're annoyed now, wait till you read part 2! ...but there is definitely some stuff worth thinking seriously about in it. (Some time next week most likely)

Quote:

Edit: BTW, I have the ultimate identity theft protection service. It's so powerful and secret that I'm not allowed to tell you who it is in a public forum. But if you call my 800 number now, I'll let you in my secret ABSOLUTELY FREE! Yes, that's right. Free. My information is so valuable, I'm giving it away to the first 500 callers!

I can't believe nobody's asked me for the number yet. What's with you guys?

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Aaron Blumer wrote: I can't
Aaron Blumer wrote:

I can't believe nobody's asked me for the number yet. What's with you guys?

You haven't yet attractively packaged it! Smile

Paul J. Scharf
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Thanks Aaron!

Aaron,

I am not annoyed -- more puzzled.

If I had to sum up this thread, it sounds to me like some people are so annoyed at Dave Ramsey (because he is wealthy or for various other mostly superficial reasons) that they seek to discredit his message -- even though they do not know what that message is, per se.

If I did not know better, I might think I was reading from MoveOn.org! I must be missing something here.

I could even see the argument that might say that, "Ramsey is good compared to listening to Rush Limbaugh, but we would not have him in our church because he is ecumenical, is not strictly Biblical, uses worldly methods, etc." But some of this stuff is just irrational.

To those who are "Ramsey-critics" even though they have never seen or heard him, I would suggest that they watch an hour of his Fox Business Network show (which is better than his radio program, IMHO) FOR FREE -- because we would not want Dave to be paid for his labors Smile -- at Hulu.com.

And if Crown or Clark Howard works better for you -- fine!

(However, if you cannot in good conscience listen to Dave because he has made a significant amount of money off of his gig and is therefore much like a deceitful televangelist, good for you! You will have so much spare time now as you also give up watching news, sports, movies, TV programs, politics, etc.!! Smile :) Smile Congratulations -- you have made the world safe for justice, and I expect that righteousness will soon begin to spring out everywhere!!!)

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Jonathan Charles
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This church advertises

This church advertises "Financial Peace University." Notice anything funny about the logo? The Bible has 2 "$" signs imposed over it. I'm guessing this is an old logo becasue I can't find it on the daveramsey.com web site. Maybe FPU went through a TBN cheesy phase.

http://www.uccalvary.com/Financial_Peace_University/

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Another annoying thing Ramsey

Another annoying thing Ramsey says over and over in his seminar.

"If you follow my advice, you will be rich."

This of course is rubbish. Not everyone is going to be rich regardless of how good they are managing their money. That kind of rhetoric may sell lots of overpriced books but it gives false hope.

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"Pastor, if you spend this

"Pastor, if you spend this amount of money to hold a video financial seminar in your church, you'll help your people, and you'll increase your offerings." That's how the marketers for Ramsey came accross to me when they approached me about having the program here.

I'm all for encouraging God's people to spend wisely, but I am weary of the "increase your church offering gimmicks." God did not call me to increase offerings. Yet, by His grace, we have always received more income than the budget for 16 straight years. I'm also leary of telling people who are broke to come to church and pay such and such a price to revolutionize your finances.

Let's have a "you'll be more blessed if you learn to give (not spend) more than you receive" seminar that will will cost the teacher more than it would cost the attender and see what God might do.

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The view from my perspective...

I shall begin by stating that although I have not watched the video course, I have read two of Ramsey's books (including FP) and listened to countless hours of his radio show while in the car during my work.

Dave Ramsey delivers when it comes to his primary purposes: getting people out of debt and helping them save money to prepare for their future. For those who have listened to him, it would seem they could hardly disagree. There was a very interesting article in the Atlantic a few months back that argued this point (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/12/lead-us-not-into-deb...). At heart, Ramsey is pragmatic. He thinks that people should be out of debt, live within their means, and sock the money for a rainy day and retirement (not too much of an over simplification, I hope) and his advice is centered on helping people accomplish this and similar goals. This is where his road leads, and most of us would be much better of if this were the road we were on. I know that he is abrasive at times and rude and crude, and I wish he were not. But, most often, it seems that his map will lead to the destination he promises.

What concerns me is when churches use Ramsey alone to teach financial principles to their congregations. Now, much could be gained by the various congregations about stewardship and financial matters. But Ramsey rarely if ever explicitly deals with heart issues and motivations. He doesn't ask the 'why'. What motivated you to make those purchases that led you to getting into debt? What motivated you to purchase such a large home? Why do you feel the need to spend money on these items? What about your heart is directing you to make these decisions? I'm not saying that Ramsey should necessarily be doing this in his program. This isn't his goal, but it should be the goal of the church. Whether or not the church should provide the practical tools to manage money is something that good people can disagree on, but it seems that all should agree that the church should be intimately concerned with what our use of money shows about the motivations of our heart. Are we loving God and serving others with our money, or is our use of money centered around meeting our perceived needs and greedy desires?

This is one reason why I think that Randy Alcorn's Money, Possessions, and Eternity is an excellent counterbalance to Ramsey's pragmatism. Alcorn is much more concerned about the heart and motivations of the individual. I think we can benefit greatly from both, but I hope that people will discern the benefit of beginning with the heart of the matter before simply applying the practical tools of wise money management.

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Matthew 18

We all have opinions on programs but I felt Mr. Farnham's conclusions about Dave's personality were rather harsh. I wondered if Mr. Farnham has contacted Dave Ramsey personally and spoken with him about the "good, the bad, and the ugly" of FPU? Dave say's he is a believer in Christ and as such could possibly benefit from a concerned Christian brother who ultimately has the glory of God as his goal as well. To truly be an agent of change and not just criticism then those with concerns should contact Mr. Ramsey ....or does being a public figure make you ineligible for the Matthew 18 application?

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Susan McCurdy wrote: To
Susan McCurdy wrote:

To truly be an agent of change and not just criticism then those with concerns should contact Mr. Ramsey ....or does being a public figure make you ineligible for the Matthew 18 application?

I think we've been here before. He is a public figure with published works. Matthew 18 is "ideally" in a church situation. How would a person who isn't associated with this person in a church setting go about applying Matthew 18 here?

I think we went through this idea a few years back and it was never ever resolved. There can only be a friendship type of conversation, sharing concerns, etc, but nothing beyond that. If you can think of a way, I'd love for someone to delineate it.

---

I have another question...who or what is "Crown"? Is that associated with Crown College and Sexton?

Also, I remember, before Dave Ramsey a man named Bob Valliencourt (I think) who did financial seminars in churches because I was in one. Seems like I heard him in AK over 20 years ago. I have no idea what he is doing these days...

Dealing with the emotional part of finances and motives/why we buy/spend is a fascinating subject. Proverbs has a lot to say about finances. This morning we read (at breakfast) about not signing on a loan for someone when you don't have the money to pay it back! So, this kind of information has been around a while. Smile

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What is Crown?
Becky Petersen wrote:

I have another question...who or what is "Crown"? Is that associated with Crown College and Sexton?

Crown Financial Ministries is the new name (for about 11 years now) of Christian Financial Concepts, which was begun by Larry Burkett. Since he died, the radio program ("Money Matters" -- which is now "MoneyLife") has been hosted by Howard Dayton and Chuck Bentley.

Their Web site is www.crown.org.

Ramsey learned about Biblical finances from Burkett, and Crown and Ramsey promote each other: Ramsey was a guest on "MoneyLife" as recently as a few months ago, and Ramsey openly tells people to use Crown's material on his radio program.

(As I said before, Ramsey and Clark Howard are also good friends and have appeared together.)

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Quote: We all have opinions
Quote:

We all have opinions on programs but I felt Mr. Farnham's conclusions about Dave's personality were rather harsh. I wondered if Mr. Farnham has contacted Dave Ramsey personally and spoken with him about the "good, the bad, and the ugly" of FPU? Dave say's he is a believer in Christ and as such could possibly benefit from a concerned Christian brother who ultimately has the glory of God as his goal as well. To truly be an agent of change and not just criticism then those with concerns should contact Mr. Ramsey ....or does being a public figure make you ineligible for the Matthew 18 application?

Susan, I wonder, did you contact Mr. Farnham personally and speak with him? If not, then I wonder if you are living by your own dictum.

To your point, DR is a public figure with public writing. Matthew 18 deals with sin in the context of personal relationships in the body of Christ. So this is not a Matthew 18 type situation.

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No need to be snarky

Larry,

There is no need to be snarky. I agree that this is not an issue for a Matt. 18 confrontation.

However, it is also true that the original piece lacks a coherent purpose, and is certainly not a fair evaluation of Ramsey, as has been well-rehearsed on this thread.

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Quote: There is no need to be
Quote:

There is no need to be snarky. I agree that this is not an issue for a Matt. 18 confrontation.

There is no intent to be snarky at all. I am suggesting that there is an inconsistency here that needs to be thought about, that the words used could equally be used in the other directions as well.

Quote:

However, it is also true that the original piece lacks a coherent purpose

I am not sure of that at all. First, I think the purpose was pretty clear: a general attempt to evaluate the program biblically and theologically, while being as charitable as possible. You may disagree that he achieved that purpose, and that is certainly fine. It is an object of evaluation.

And I think there is a subsequent article coming, so perhaps we should wait until the whole thing is posted.

Quote:

and is certainly not a fair evaluation of Ramsey, as has been well-rehearsed on this thread.

Again, I am not so sure. There has been a lot of objection and back and forth. There have been many who disagreed with the article, you being among the strongest. But I am not sure that means the article wasn't fair. I think it means there are disagreements about Ramsey.

You earlier said that some of these responses were so bad, they didn't even deserve a response. I would suggest that for those of us who don't know Ramsey very well, a response is most definitely needed.

For my dollar, I don't care either way. I listen to him when he is on and enjoy it. Honestly, I would rather listen to Bob Brinker for financial advice, but it's a different type of show. I am fairly confident on my financial approach and the people that I have leaned on for information and knowledge. But I know a lot of people listen to DR, and I found that, in the short amount I have listened to him, my thoughts resemble Mark's in many ways. So I don't know that much about him. I like some of his financial advice. I am not sure about the rest of it.

I think it is worthy of discussion.

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Matthew 18

Paul, I think Larry's response is fine. Just a little "turn about is fair play" to reveal some problems with logic in a poignant way.
(It's a bit off topic, but Matt.18 is not about public sins.)

As for whether Farnham's review is not "a fair evaluation" of Ramsey, we have you asserting that repeatedly, and I'm open to that possibility, but I think it would be difficult to show where Mark is factually in error or to prove that the opinion parts are not well founded (he also cannot really prove that the opinion parts are well founded. This is the nature of opinion writing.) That is, it's a case of agreeing on the facts and disagreeing on evaluation. Strongest thing we can do about that part is say "I disagree."

I'm sure most readers respond to a negative review along the lines of "Well, I'll have to find out for myself."

The strongest criticism we've seen in the thread here is coming from folks who are philosophically opposed to making a large profit. With that grid in place, Ramsey cannot win with them no matter what he does. It makes no difference if they've ever seen or heard him or not. It's a matter of record, I think, that he's rich and getting richer. I suppose he could give it all away tomorrow and that might silence some critics. Might be interesting to talk about why that would or wouldn't be a good move.

What might also be interesting is to talk about how phrases along the lines of "Do this and you'll be rich" (Paul, would you agree he talks that way? I wouldn't know one way or the other.) square with 1 Timothy 6:9-10. What does this passage mean and how would it apply in this case?

Jonathan Charles
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How does Ramsey square with

How does Ramsey square with Paul's statement concerning those who use godliness as a means of gain (1 Timothy 6:5)? I'm not against Ramsey making a living, but I am leery of the local church being made a tool of a man's corporation to enrich his company and himself, personally. If Ramsey wanted to, he could divide Financial Peace University off of Lampo Group and let it operate as a non-profit to minister solely to local churches. I doubt he will do that, so, in the mean time, there are plenty of non-profits who do this stuff who will take their income above expenses and invest it back into ministry to keep the cost of their program down.

The charge has been brought up time and time again on this thread by some who have watched the videos, read the books and taken the course that Ramsey does not deal sufficiently with heart issues and spiritual motivations concerning how money is spent. I'll ask one more time, "What is being accomplished if Christians become debt free but their heart issues regarding money are never dealt with?" If the gospel is to pervade every aspect of our lives, does Ramsey bring out how the gospel impacts how/why we spend/save money? If this is missing as Joe Griffin (above) and others have pointed out, then what is being accomplished????????????????????

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A couple answers
Jonathan Charles wrote:

If the gospel is to pervade every aspect of our lives, does Ramsey bring out how the gospel impacts how/why we spend/save money? If this is missing as Joe Griffin (above) and others have pointed out, then what is being accomplished????????????????????

Jonathan,
This is a good and fair question. I think what is being accomplished, at the very least, is that Ramsey is helping people every day who are on the verge of bankruptcy and foreclosure (or who may think they are, but really are not). It is interesting that people who are opposed to Ramsey for reasons only they apparently understand have argued in this thread, simultaneously, both that (a) Ramsey is not Christian or Biblical enough; and (b) there is no such thing as Bibilical financial wisdom anyway -- any old secular finance person can do what he does.

He is offering Biblical counsel on finances in the mainstream media -- and we are sitting here griping about it. That, to me, is very sad.

If you want the exact same Biblical financial persepective from a "kinder, gentler" -- and, yes, probably more Biblically-informed source -- check Ron Blue (www.ronblue.com). The problem, of course, is that Blue does not have anywhere near the volume or quality of materials or programs which Ramsey makes available.

Aaron asked,
"What might also be interesting is to talk about how phrases along the lines of "Do this and you'll be rich" (Paul, would you agree he talks that way? I wouldn't know one way or the other.) square with 1 Timothy 6:9-10."

I would simply say that Ramsey is on radio/TV for 20 hours per week, so this is open for anyone to check out and evaluate his teaching. If you have not listened to Ramsey, however, it is difficult to carry on a conversation about it. In the grand context, the sense I get is that when Ramsey talks about being "rich," he is talking primarily about "retiring with dignity," "changing your family tree" and "giving most of it away." This is a major part of the end chapters of TTMM. For every example he gives of how he has achieved "financial peace" himself, he also gives examples of how he and his wife live very frugally.

For all the griping about how much money Ramsey makes, who is to say that he has not already stepped down and sacrificed to do his work of financial counseling and running a radio show? I am sure he is probably earning a healthy income from it, but I believe he originally became a millionaire a second time through his first career in real estate. Again, these kinds of details make it difficult to carry on a conversation on this thread with folks who are commenting while not knowing anything about Ramsey.

People are even griping about the price of his books. Do they know that he sold TTMM for $5 this Christmas?

"I think it would be difficult to show where Mark is factually in error."

Mark already admitted one case in Post #18.

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1 Tim. 6
Quote:

"I think it would be difficult to show where Mark is factually in error."
Mark already admitted one case in Post #18.

Granted. Any others?

I can accept the idea that when he says "Do this and you'll get rich" he means some a bit different by it than it may sound.
Still, what does 1 Tim 6.9ff mean when it warns that those who desire to be rich fall into a snare, etc.?
I wrestle with this because my own view of wealth is not quite what I hear from many Fundamentalists. (It's probably a moot point in my case, though, since my plan to be rich and famous by age 22 is a bit behind schedule Wink )

It would be really interesting to see thorough study of the whole topic of wealth from a serious, conservative biblical perspective. Most evangelicals tend to approach these questions strongly tilted from the outset either toward a sort of Benedictine "poor is more spiritual than rich" view or the opposite "health and wealth gospel" perspective.

(Edit: some might say we've got that study in Burkette's work, but I'm not really talking about an advice book w/some developing of prinicples for context. More of a theology of wealth. It's probably been done, but I haven't seen it)

My concern is that sometimes I think I see a serious financial weakness in Fundamentalism due in part to short-term thinking and a failure to value the role of money in ministry across generations.... as well as the role of money in sustaining a strong family tradition across generations. It's hard to explain, but once you are "too poor" to educate a generation well, your family or ministry or "movement" or whatever begins a slow death. It's not that simple of course, but I wonder sometimes what the better sort of Fundamentalists could accomplish if they were better financed.

Surely Paul's point in 1 Tim. is not that it is dangerous or sinful to ask "How can I amply fund multiple generations of well educated, leaders in my family?" But it is hard to reconcile with the "this world is not my home I'm just a passin' through" attitude. The problem there is that we do not know how many more generations must "pass through."

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@Aaron, My argument wouldn't

@Aaron,

My argument wouldn't be that Mark's article contains factual errors, but rather opinionated propaganda. Propaganda isn't necessarily error as much as it is half-truths—it's not "fair and balanced." I already stated my "I disagree" for the article. The unfortunate thing is that when something is published in the blog from someone with Mark's credentials it is difficult to avoid the tacit endorsement by SI that what he says carries more weight, even having dogmatic conclusions. Perhaps that's why Paul has been so vocal in his opposition.

I appreciate the "market place of ideas" that SI affords those with opinions. I only hope the same courtesy is afforded others with whose opinion you may disagree more strongly. Wink

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Thanks Matthew

I think your post #29 is the key to this whole thread.

As I read Mark's article in light of your post, I am left to wonder:

Is Mark saying --

a) Ramsey's teaching are in error, so take my caution and avoid them;

b) Ramsey's teaching is correct, but his methods are so egregious that they invalidate his program; or

c) This is a vent about how I feel about Dave Ramsey.

I truly hope that part 2, "the bad," is not just more venting. It will not affect my life, but it may negatively impact people -- perhaps Christian college students -- who really NEED Ramsey's teaching, whether they get it through him or someone else.

(I can pretty much guarantee that they are not going to get it in Christian college or seminary.)

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Thanks Aaron

You have a lot of good points in post #64, and I wanted you to know I thought seriously about them -- just don't have all the answers (maybe any of the answers).

Unfortunately, a lot of instances which I have seen in this life qualify to help only by serving as "bad examples" Smile.

The only people I know with materials related to your profound thoughts in the last two paragraphs are the guys at Vision Forum (www.visionforum.com).

Your post is definitely the kind of discussion that an article on Ramsey should generate -- much more edifying than arguing about how much money he makes or what his materials cost.

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I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
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At the very minimum, if

At the very minimum, if Christians would learn to be more self-disciplined in their financial matters, it would be a better testimony to the world, and they could sleep at night knowing that their bills are paid.

There's a lot to be said for teaching people the basics. There are a lot of really big risk takers out there (financially speaking) and often the husband/wife team really aren't in philosophical agreement there. We've seen it when we stay in people's homes. If it takes DR, and his abrupt style (maybe crude?), then at least maybe it is getting some people's attention. Maybe it says more about our culture than anything else.

Anyway, if he is helping the average Joe Blow in the churches to get their personal finances in order, I'm glad. But, even though I've had not a lot of personal contact with his stuff, I'd say that he will reach his zenith and then become less popular and someone else will get the spotlight. It's the way of life in modern times.

In anyone's ministry, you can find the good and the bad.

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Just curious....

I'm not personally familiar with DR's stuff for churches...just know it exits. I'm aware of his Fox program and read his column in the paper sometimes. But I'm curious about the whole "show his stuff in your church for $100 a head" approach. If the material is biblically based, why can't someone build a S.S. series off his books--using perhaps his topical organization w/ examples, etc.--and simply present it to adult classes? Most likely, the series could be shorter (don't have all the glitz of a DVD presentation), more targeted to the specific needs/problems of the church or class, and wouldn't cost people money--just time. And if I felt some resources were particularly valuable, the church could make them available.

Am I missing something here? I do realize the value of "no need reinventing the wheel," and it's certainly more convenient & takes less effort to set up a DVD presentation & pop in this week's lesson. I've done that with a couple of packaged series, but the "student" didn't have to pay to attend the sessions. The church buys the DVD pkg for $100, corresponding books are made available for those who want to buy them (for maybe $15), and that's it. I'd have a huge problem telling my congregation, "We're doing a series on biblically based stewardship. To get the goods, you have to shell out the bucks." Incidentally, I have no problem with DR putting the material together, selling it, and making a reasonable profit. There are scores of DVD packaged lesson materials available sold at a profit...but the students don't have to pay to attend the sessions & get the basic lesson material.

Maybe the argument is, "It's like going to a conference. If you went to a weekend conference you'd have to pay to learn...same thing." But it's not. A little thinking would come up with a bunch of huge differences.

So, just curious. For those who have attended a church-sponsored FPU event, or if your church put one on, why the fee-based approach?

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Something we are forgetting in this thread

DR's major emphasis is getting people out of debt. Christians are equally as guilty as non-Christians when it comes to oppressive debt. Our country is plagued to the point of crisis by debt -- currently about $14 trillion annually. As a debtor nation, America leads the world. We are becoming servants to China and Japan. As debtors, Christians are a reflection and a part of this national problem. Whatever one's disagreements with DR's personality, his emphasis on gaining wealth, his use of slick advertising, etc., wouldn't it be more patriotic for all Americans to become debt free? Wouldn't our politicians be more inclined to stop increasing the national debt if a generation of citizens who have learned to operate by sound financial principles were to demand more fiscal responsibility of its leaders? Maybe this same influence from church members, who have learned the proper use of money, might prevent churches from making unwise financial decisions. Paul makes reference in 1 Cor. 7:31 to the principle of "using the world without abusing it." Maybe this principle might apply to making use of worldly-wise concepts of handling money as well. In Luke 16:8, our Lord says that "the sons of this world are more shrewd in their generation than the sons of light." Again, in Luke 16:10-12, Jesus says: "He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much. Therefore if you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammom, who will commit to your trust the true riches? And if you have not been faithful in what is another man's, who will give you what is your own?" Multitudes of Christians are unfaithful in the use of the resources God gives them, and this unwise use of money leads to want and poverty as well as to lost opportunities for serving God with our resources. The principles of saving and financial investing are common knowledge. Christians ignore them to their own hurt and to the hurt of the kingdom of God. Why should our Lord have to rebuke the righteous for not being as wise as the "sons of this world"? When it comes to solving other problems or to acquiring useful information, why do some Christians get so uptight about the source of their knowledge? I would agree that the motives for gaining wealth ought to be in step with Scripture and that giving to the Lord's work should trump the selfish use of what God blesses us with. But I thnk that the original intent of this thread ignores the fact that Christians have by and large fallen into the trap of debt and need help in resolving this problem. Thousands of Christians and non-Christians have benefited from DR and Crown. The Bible says as "laborers," they are worthy of their hire. We've got bigger fish to fry.

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The cost of FPU
BryanBice wrote:

But I'm curious about the whole "show his stuff in your church for $100 a head" approach. If the material is biblically based, why can't someone build a S.S. series off his books--using perhaps his topical organization w/ examples, etc.--and simply present it to adult classes? Most likely, the series could be shorter (don't have all the glitz of a DVD presentation), more targeted to the specific needs/problems of the church or class, and wouldn't cost people money--just time. And if I felt some resources were particularly valuable, the church could make them available.

Bryan,

You certainly could refer to the book in teaching a class, but if you are suggesting "Build-your-own-FPU" using Ramsey's materials, I think you would be running into some serious copyright issues.

Ramsey has explained that one reason for charging for the class as he does is that it makes it become something of value for the student -- just as some church programs have charged for Biblical (nouthetic) counseling. Also, the fee includes a personal set of all the materials for the student and a lifetime membership to the course. (http://www.daveramsey.com/fpu/home/) I don't suppose that even Ramsey has enough money to give a set of DVDs to every person in America who wants them for free Smile.

Even Farnham's original article said, "the course (may be) worth many times its $100 price tag."

I have to say that I am very puzzled by the repeated interjection in this thread to the "glitz" of Ramsey/FPU. Can someone state an example of misconduct or even something they personally dislike? Or is this just a mantra that is being picked up? How do his videos or Web site differ from something else you have seen, or how would you do it differently? Is there some fault you can point to that represents something of substance (i.e., not "I don't like the color of his Web site")?

jimcarwest wrote:
"But I thnk that the original intent of this thread ignores the fact that Christians have by and large fallen into the trap of debt and need help in resolving this problem. Thousands of Christians and non-Christians have benefited from DR and Crown. The Bible says as 'laborers,' they are worthy of their hire. We've got bigger fish to fry."

Amen Jim! Preach it! Both the original article and the discussion which follow have largely ignored the substance of the issue -- Christians and even CHURCHES facing foreclosure in record numbers, personal and national debt at record levels, etc., etc. We are arguing over the hairs in Ramsey's mustache while the country is on fire!

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Joe Griffin
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A few more thoughts...

Paul,

I agree with you that the controversy regarding what Ramsey charges for his video class seems like straining a gnat. He produces a high quality product that is delivered in an engaging manner, and, as I said in my earlier post, I think Ramsey’s product works for its intended purposes: getting people out of debt and on a secure financial footing. Why would we think that someone should give this product away? Just because certain product lines are directed at churches or religious organizations? I think not. This isn’t a burden we put on our own ministers.

But I would like to ask you about one of your statements. The relevant quote is below:

Quote:

Amen Jim! Preach it! Both the original article and the discussion which follow have largely ignored the substance of the issue -- Christians and even CHURCHES facing foreclosure in record numbers, personal and national debt at record levels, etc., etc. We are arguing over the hairs in Ramsey's mustache while the country is on fire!

You seem to imply, and I may be misunderstanding you, that the country is on fire because of the debt load that churches and believers and the country are under. From a political perspective, I have no problem with this statement. The national and individual debt load has placed and is placing a burden on this country that we most likely have not felt the full weight of.

But from the perspective of a believer or that of a church, the debt load we as churches and individuals are under is indicative of a much deeper problem. The debt is merely a symptom of a much more sinister problem: envy, greed, pride, etc. We want this or that, cannot afford it, but think we deserve it to the point that we place ourselves under a load of debt we cannot support. The debt isn’t the problem, it is the motivation that led us to want something so much that we forgot biblical principles of wise stewardship. If we paid off the debt without resolving the heart issues, this would not put out the true proverbial fire.

This again is my caution with Dave Ramsey. His materials will help you get of debt and on secure financial footing, but they do not focus on the motivations of the heart. Therefore, I would urge any individual or church using his material to supplement it with teaching that causes them to analyze their motivations and heart.

Paul J. Scharf
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Thanks Joe

I have no problem with your statement. I think we are on the same page.

(Sometimes also, however, the debt IS the problem -- such as in the case of medical debt.)

Back to your analogy, personally I think Ramsey is at least good at "ringing the fire alarm" in a way that most people are going to hear it.

To stretch the analogy, if we begin with Crown or Randy Alcorn dissecting "who started the fire and why," we may just end with a few folks sleeping right through the fire in the burning house.

Fire investigators usually do their work after the firefighters are done.

Am I wrong to put things in this order with regard to debt? Smile

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GregH
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Paul J. Scharf wrote: I have
Paul J. Scharf wrote:

I have to say that I am very puzzled by the repeated interjection in this thread to the "glitz" of Ramsey/FPU. Can someone state an example of misconduct or even something they personally dislike? Or is this just a mantra that is being picked up? How do his videos or Web site differ from something else you have seen, or how would you do it differently? Is there some fault you can point to that represents something of substance (i.e., not "I don't like the color of his Web site")?

Paul, I (and others) have repeatedly given specific examples. You have chosen to ignore them or you refuse to give them any credibility. But it is incorrect to say that no one is giving examples.

You said something earlier (post #14) to imply that I don't know what I am talking about. When I challenged you to elaborate, you ignored it. Do you concede that you were wrong or do you want to explain to me why I am so financially ignorant?

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Response to Greg

Saying it can be dangerous to pay off debt, advocating the use of more debt against your house, advocating investing money which could be used to pay the house off and hoping to beat the bank on interest earned -- these are dangerous ideas which Ramsey deals with in detail. Even people who are well short of agreeing with Ramsey on many things would disagree with you on these.

If you are seriously advocating for these ideas as opposed to the Biblical teaching on finance, you need to study and pray. I say this lovingly, because I was once that ignorant of the truth also.

At least you are being honest if those are your disagreements with Ramsey.

I have seen no specific examples from people who otherwise agree with Ramsey but just can't promote him because he is too "glitzy," thus I must conclude that that is a red herring. (I guess Mark is saying in the original article that Ramsey is too much of a self-promoter -- so perhaps that is a specific, but it is not very clear what Mark is telling us to do about it.)

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The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
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Larry
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Quote: ... advocating
Quote:

... advocating investing money which could be used to pay the house off and hoping to beat the bank on interest earned

Since this is the one I brought up, gave some numbers on, and asked for interaction on, perhaps you could take a minute and show the problems with it.

So far as I know, the only time in recent history (meaning the last half century) where one would have been hurt by doing this was the last two year or so, but in that case, everyone who owned a house that wasn't paid off was in trouble. Perhaps you could explain your point here (or explain Dave's point. I have heard him make it on the radio and it made no sense then, but it was a short segment so I am sure it was lacking in some regards).

In effect, it seems like the question is, if I have an extra $300 a month (or whatever number), why should I invest it at 4.75% instead of 7% or more, in addition to paying more taxes in the long run? Please correct me if the question here is wrong.

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Response to Larry

Larry,

The short answer is...because you can lose your house. The "tax savings" is a ruse foisted on the American people by bankers who can do math. (Larry Burkett used to lick his chops when he got that question. He would always say, "I have a better deal -- you give me your money, and I will give you 95 percent of it back...")

I am Bible teacher and a writer, not a financial teacher, so -- no -- I am going to politely refuse your invitation to go into a financial lesson. When it comes to finances, I am a student, not an expert -- just one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread.

If you don't like Ramsey, I would suggest you go to www.crown.org, where you will get the same answers.

__________________

The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
I speak through www.IMISOS.org.

GregH
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Paul J. Scharf wrote:Saying
Paul J. Scharf wrote:

Saying it can be dangerous to pay off debt, advocating the use of more debt against your house, advocating investing money which could be used to pay the house off and hoping to beat the bank on interest earned -- these are dangerous ideas which Ramsey deals with in detail. Even people who are well short of agreeing with Ramsey on many things would disagree with you on these.

If you are seriously advocating for these ideas as opposed to the Biblical teaching on finance, you need to study and pray. I say this lovingly, because I was once that ignorant of the truth also.

At least you are being honest if those are your disagreements with Ramsey.

I have seen no specific examples from people who otherwise agree with Ramsey but just can't promote him because he is too "glitzy," thus I must conclude that that is a red herring. (I guess Mark is saying in the original article that Ramsey is too much of a self-promoter -- so perhaps that is a specific, but it is not very clear what Mark is telling us to do about it.)

Paul, you may not have the financial acumen to understand what I said. I am not going to go into enormous details to try to educate you, but what I said was true. It can be dangerous in today's environment to pay off debt too aggressively, and there is nothing wrong with intelligently borrowing against your house.

Ramsey's teaching is designed for financial amateurs. It is illogical to people with more acumen. For example, he teaches to pay off the lowest credit balance first regardless of the interest rate. I know why he teaches this and it is OK I suppose for undisciplined people. But for those who know more, it makes no sense.

Just be careful of who you call ignorant, especially when you admit you are a financial novice.

GregH
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Larry wrote: Quote: ...
Larry wrote:
Quote:

... advocating investing money which could be used to pay the house off and hoping to beat the bank on interest earned

Since this is the one I brought up, gave some numbers on, and asked for interaction on, perhaps you could take a minute and show the problems with it.

So far as I know, the only time in recent history (meaning the last half century) where one would have been hurt by doing this was the last two year or so, but in that case, everyone who owned a house that wasn't paid off was in trouble. Perhaps you could explain your point here (or explain Dave's point. I have heard him make it on the radio and it made no sense then, but it was a short segment so I am sure it was lacking in some regards).

In effect, it seems like the question is, if I have an extra $300 a month (or whatever number), why should I invest it at 4.75% instead of 7% or more, in addition to paying more taxes in the long run? Please correct me if the question here is wrong.

I think Larry that Ramsey is gearing his material to people who are largely undisciplined and financial novices. He knows that those people are not going to invest the extra $300/month; they are going to blow it. And for people like that, they are better off paying off their house asap.

This is why he advocates many things that make no sense to people with more experience. For example, he tells people to pay off the lowest credit balances first, not the balances with the highest interest rates. He believes that if people can see progress, they will be fired up about continuing.

I see his point, but again, this kind of advice is not for everyone. It is for people that can't handle money and lack discipline to save/invest.

Larry
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Thanks, Paul. I ask because I

Thanks, Paul. I ask because I am not sure either.

Quote:

The short answer is...because you can lose your house.

How? If I put away that money, then I have it if I need it. In other words, I am not spending that money on something else. So if I lose my job or my ability to make payments, I have that money to draw on until I get another job.

And what about this: If I make extra payments, does it put me ahead of schedule, so I don't have to make any for a while? I don't think it does. I think the bank wants their payment every month, no matter how much I have paid ahead. (I could be wrong. I have no mortgage so I am not sure.) So if I lose my job and can't make my payment, and instead of investing it I have paid down my mortgage, then I have nothing in reserve to pay my mortgage with while I have no job.

Again, I could be wrong. I am not sure.

Quote:

The "tax savings" is a ruse foisted on the American people by bankers who can do math. (Larry Burkett used to lick his chops when he got that question. He would always say, "I have a better deal -- you give me your money, and I will give you 95 percent of it back...")

I am not sure how this works. I would be interested in an explanation. If I get a tax deduction for mortgage, that means I get to keep more of my money than if not. I think Burkett's deal works with playing the lottery (which has strange similarities to buying houses these days). But again, I am not sure how I benefit by paying more tax than I would otherwise have to.

Now again, if one is not investing the money, that is a different story.

Quote:

If you don't like Ramsey, I would suggest you go to www.crown.org, where you will get the same answers.

For my dollar, it is not about liking or not liking Ramsey. I don't really care one way or the other. I listen to him when I am in the car and he is on. I wouldn't have him in church. He rubs me a bit the wrong way sometimes, but I don't really think that much about it. My point is about sound financial advice.

You mention Crown, so I went there and looked. Here is what they say

Quote:

Nevertheless, if a home mortgage cannot be paid off within the next five years or so by adding additional payments to the principal, the homeowner might want to consider investing any surplus funds and accumulating the funds until they can pay off the mortgage with one lump sum payment

That sounds similar to what I am saying.

I would imagine their five year rule is based on the difference in interest rates, though they don't say. Their article seems based on the fact that if you don't prepay the mortgage, you waste the money. My argument is based on the fact that if you don't prepay the mortgage, you invest it. I agree that if one is not going to invest regularly, then they should prepay the mortgage.

BryanBice
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Clarified curiosity
Paul J. Scharf wrote:

You certainly could refer to the book in teaching a class, but if you are suggesting "Build-your-own-FPU" using Ramsey's materials, I think you would be running into some serious copyright issues.

Ramsey has explained that one reason for charging for the class as he does is that it makes it become something of value for the student -- just as some church programs have charged for Biblical (nouthetic) counseling. Also, the fee includes a personal set of all the materials for the student and a lifetime membership to the course. (http://www.daveramsey.com/fpu/home/) I don't suppose that even Ramsey has enough money to give a set of DVDs to every person in America who wants them for free Smile.

Even Farnham's original article said, "the course (may be) worth many times its $100 price tag."

I have to say that I am very puzzled by the repeated interjection in this thread to the "glitz" of Ramsey/FPU. Can someone state an example of misconduct or even something they personally dislike? Or is this just a mantra that is being picked up? How do his videos or Web site differ from something else you have seen, or how would you do it differently? Is there some fault you can point to that represents something of substance (i.e., not "I don't like the color of his Web site")?

jimcarwest wrote:
"But I thnk that the original intent of this thread ignores the fact that Christians have by and large fallen into the trap of debt and need help in resolving this problem. Thousands of Christians and non-Christians have benefited from DR and Crown. The Bible says as 'laborers,' they are worthy of their hire. We've got bigger fish to fry."

Amen Jim! Preach it! Both the original article and the discussion which follow have largely ignored the substance of the issue -- Christians and even CHURCHES facing foreclosure in record numbers, personal and national debt at record levels, etc., etc. We are arguing over the hairs in Ramsey's mustache while the country is on fire!

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about copyright infringement. In an educational setting, there's no copyright violation by taking several sources, or even 1 primary source, and using the basic content as a starting point or outline for a class. Of course, the ethical thing to do is give proper credit & let the class know what you're doing. I've done this very thing with books like Bridges Respectable Sins & Disciplines of Grace. The class was given the option of buying the books as foundational, but they weren't required to buy them in order to attend the class. And, incidentally, some of the topics in those 2 books would deal with the root issues of many of the debt problems people face.

As far as the "charge 'em so they'll 'own' and value the material" goes, sorry...I don't buy it (no pun intended). Where does that end? I certainly have no problem with offering the "personal set of materials & lifetime membership" stuff for sale if anyone would like to buy it (no credit cards accepted though!), but you have to pay the $100 to attend? Here's the bottom line. Besides having some philosophical issues with this approach, it would be foolish to try to use FPU in my church. Most of the people can't afford the $100. Those who could afford it, need the information the least...and they wouldn't spend the money on it anyway. Besides that, I'd get all kinds of grief (and rightly so) for offering a "biblical stewardship series" for a fee. I'd also probably get a little grief from some who happen to notice that the liberal Lutheran church down the road is offering FPU, too.

As far as my "glitz" reference goes, I didn't mean anything particularly derogatory by it. I was simply referring to the fact that a DVD presentation has a lot more "glitz" to it than you'll find in my typical weekly SS class...you know, musical lead ins…introduction of author...etc, etc. I don't have a problem with any of that -- every DVD series I've used has those "glitzy" features. But if a live body were simply presenting the essential, biblical material each week, it could be done in a shorter period of time.

Paul J. Scharf
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Thanks Greg and Larry

Greg, I believe I understand perfectly what you are saying. Thanks.

Larry, if you are seriously looking for real answers, here is an introductory article to get started: http://www.daveramsey.com/article/the-truth-about-mortgages/lifeandmoney...

There are many more -- you can search for what you like. Smile

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The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
I speak through www.IMISOS.org.

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The real questions.............

Born of Scot-Irish descent, frugality must be in my genes. In addition, I was brought up on debt-free living. My Dad, who is a better money manager than any MBA that I know, invested and parlayed a working man's wages into a net worth of well over a million. Meanwhile, my Dad was a generous donor to Christian and conservative causes as well as to needy individuals. There wasn't a stingy, selfish bone in his body. Dad's Christian charity was practical in carrying car-loads of groceries to struggling families, paying for automobile repairs, and paying tuition for needy students. He and my Mom worked hard and saved. They bought on a cash basis and didn't even have a credit card. We didn't indulge in luxuries but we never really missed them either. We lived according to I Timothy 6:8 and Hebrews 13:5. We had enough, really didn't desire more, and were truly thankful for what we had. This was my heritage.

When I listen to Dave Ramsey, there is something that resonances deep within my core. Debt-fee living, paying with cash, savings, and establishing priorities are my personal financial principles too. I cut my eyetooth on these. Yes, I want to get the message out to this debt-ridden, despairing world! People need to hear this! We don't need the Obama welfare state! Let's share the good news! And Dave talks about being a Christian too. Right! We need Christians promoting a Christian world-view in all areas of life.

My adrenalin flows and my mind revs with excitement when I listen to Dave Ramsey. Go, Dave, go! Tell 'em, Dave! Preach it, brother! Yeah! Then, the question pops up its ugly head. Yeah, Dave! Go, Dave, go! It must be of the Devil. Dave's a Christian. Tell it like it is, Dave! Hurray for Dave Ramsey! Like Flip Wilson, the Devil must have put the thought there. Go, Dave, go! But the question nags on. If this is so good, so right, and so great, then why am I disturbed? Yeah.........Dave......go Dave...............the question won't go away. There's something nagging at the back of my mind..............I can't shake it off.

Well, let's look at some of the nagging questions at the most basic level.

1. First of all, there is the matter of Dave's Christianity. I cannot and will not contest his salvation and faith in Christ. The problem is that I know nothing of what he believes beyond his professed faith in Christ. Is he a Calvinist? An Arminian? A charismatic? Does he hold to Post-millennialism, Pre-millennialism, or Amillennialism? One may say that it doesn't matter but it does. His world-view, obviously, is being taught through his lectures. And his world-view, of course, is founded upon his theology. Perhaps Dave is a theonomist. Would you invite Gary North, a Theonomic economist who essentially believes what Dave Ramsey teaches, to lecture at your church? Or, a Word of Faith teacher? Would you invite Ken Copland? One may say that this is only finances, not theology. True to a certain point but a person's world-view is encompassing and comes through in all subjects, even finances. Without a doubt, Dave Ramsey's world-view is being taught through his seminars. Remember there are all kinds of "Christian" world-views out there--from Word of Faith (i.e. Health and Wealth) to Theonomic? Is not this a consideration in inviting him to your church?

2. Second of all, there is the question of how Dave promotes his Christianity. There is grave concern of how Christianity has become big business. At first, it was the publishers and recording studios but now Christianity is big business in everything from cosmetics to diet and health fads. This is, IMHO, subrogating faith to profit. Naïve believers are allured to anything claiming Christianity as a moth to a flame. Whereas there is absolutely nothing wrong with Christians doing business and making a profit, it is less than desirable for the self-same people to use their professed Christianity to promote or increase their business. This just sticks in my craw. It is making merchandise of our beliefs as an advertising gimmick. Salvation is free but Christianity is profitable.

It is common to see people from politicians to business openly professing their Christianity and piety for profit. This is nothing new. Some even preach and show religiousness for personal gain (Romans 16:18). I cannot categorically say that Dave Ramsey is doing this but I would be much more comfortably if he would refrain from mentioning his Christianity except where it is directly applicable. It is now pretty much common knowledge how George Bush's political campaigns used subterfuge to allure Christians' votes. It makes me uncomfortable. Is not this a misuse of our Christianity?

3. Third of all, the celebrity status and self-promotion turns me off. Admittedly, I have a personal bias against celebrities. For the most part, these are people whose only achievement and only interest is self-aggrandizement. The whole image is a picture of ego, self-importance, adulation, etc. All this is in direct conflict with the Biblical image of the humble man before God. I do not care to follow a celeb (I Corinthians 4:6; II Corinthians 10:12). Following celebs seems to have been a New Testament problem too (I Corinthians 3:4-8).

4. Fourth of all and finally, there is a question of what underlies Mr. Ramsey’s teachings. With most of what he teaches on a personal financial level, I can heartily agree. It is the undergirding premise behind his microeconomics and his macroeconomics that I find disturbing. Although Dave’s advice is sound and practical, his reason for being debt-free and having wealth is essentially materialistic. His appeal is materialistic. The ironic thing is that it is most likely a materialistic attitude that got people into debt in the beginning. They wanted more than their means.

What difference does it make if his advice is sound? A lot! It is possible to arrive at a good praxis from the wrong perspective. For example, one can argue for sexual abstinence on the basis of disease prevention and pregnancy prevention. This seems to work for some people. The problem is that the argument collapses if one can find a fail-safe way to avoid sexually transmitted disease and prevent pregnancy. Then abstainers return to safe promiscuous sex. On the other hand, Christians believe that promiscuous sex, either safe or unsafe, is sin because God has declared it to be. Likewise, safe, personal financial principles can be derived from a materialistic outlook but these principles are always subject of being overpowered by materialistic greed. More importantly, the Christian cannot serve both God and materialism (Matthew 6:24; Luke 16:13). From what I understand of Dave Ramsey’s philosophy of personal finances, his motivational appeal is materialistic.

Are Ramsey’s personal financial practices good? Yes! However, they are not new. Any casual Bible reader ought to know Biblical wisdom offered on personal finances (Proverbs 22:7; Proverbs 6:1; Proverbs 11:15; Proverbs 17:18; Proverbs 27:13; Romans 12:1; I Thessalonians 4:11; II Thessalonians 3:10; Proverbs 13:4; Proverbs 20:4; Proverbs 24:30-34; Proverbs 21:25; Proverbs 6:6-11; and many, many more). My parents and their generation practiced sound personal finances after having endured the Great Depression of the 1930’s. These principles were common sense and Biblical wisdom learned from their parents and their parents’ parents. Yet, we need experts and consultants to teach the same things for our better educated and more sophisticated populace today. Ironic, isn’t it?

In sum, I endorse most of Dave Ramsey’s advice as practical and good. However, I warn against the insipid materialism veiled by what appears as good principles. Although Mark Farnham has been criticized for his article, he has demonstrated wisdom, insight, and understanding. Although he is not an economist, perhaps we ought to listen to his warnings because he is conversant with the source of knowledge and wisdom—God’s Word. His critique, with slight modifications, is well said and well taken.

Larry
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Quote: Larry, if you are
Quote:

Larry, if you are seriously looking for real answers, here is an introductory article to get started:

What else would I be doing???? Seriously ...

But thanks for the link. I read it but it doesn't seem to address the issue of paying down early vs investing at a higher rate, and that is precisely the question at hand for me. Everything it says, I agree with with the possible exception of the 15 vs. 30 (because of flexibility gained). But the article doesn't address the issue I am asking about. I had already searched both Ramsey and Crown, which is how I was able to post the earlier article. Crown was the only one that addressed the particular issue that I could find.

Again, I totally agree that if the option is "spend money vs. pay the mortage," then pay the mortgage. If the option is "invest money vs pay the mortgage" I don't think that is nearly so clear cut. You stand to lose up to $75,000 in the example I gave, if those numbers are right, and so far, no one has disputed them. I think even Dave Ramsey would rather have $75,000 than not.

Most people aren't disciplined with their money. That is why they are in debt. My comments are not directed towards them at all.

GregH
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Great post RPittman.I am

Great post RPittman.

I am disturbed too, though like you, I agree with most of what Ramsey says about money management.

But what bothers me is that poeple seem to think that you can overlook the philosophical problems because of good advice about debt and saving. Sorry, the philosophical problems are more important. I would rather my children be broke and in debt than weighted down with materialism and obsessed with money.

The philosophy of money is a real blind spot in fundamentalism. I remember teaching a class several years ago and discussing whether people should know how their money was invested. Someone in the class make a public statement that he would not choose a mutual fund based on whether it invested in gambling but he certainly choose one based on how well it performed.

There is something very wrong with that kind of pragmatism, and we see the same problem here. The management of money is apparently more important than how we view money. Ramsey may be a billionaire but he appears to to be in conflict with the Bible on how he views money.

RPittman
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Sold on entitlement.................
GregH wrote:

I think Larry that Ramsey is gearing his material to people who are largely undisciplined and financial novices. He knows that those people are not going to invest the extra $300/month; they are going to blow it. And for people like that, they are better off paying off their house asap.

This is why he advocates many things that make no sense to people with more experience. For example, he tells people to pay off the lowest credit balances first, not the balances with the highest interest rates. He believes that if people can see progress, they will be fired up about continuing.

I see his point, but again, this kind of advice is not for everyone. It is for people that can't handle money and lack discipline to save/invest.

If this is true, then he probably has a potential market of 90-95% of the populace between 30-50 years old. This generation was sold on entitlement, although I'm hearing that the younger generation is now looking to saving because of the recent recession.

Paul J. Scharf
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Ramsey's church

According to on-air statements I have heard, Ramsey attends Fellowship Bible Church in Brentwood, TN, of which Michael Easley -- the former president of Moody Bible Institute -- is now the teaching pastor.

http://www.fellowshipnashville.org/content/AnnounceDetails.aspx?Announce...

__________________

The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
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BryanBice
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Joined: Tue, Jun 2 2009
Posts: 252
The latest & greatest?

In light of MacArthur's quote below, I'm wondering if FPU isn't the latest & greatest in a long line of Christian-issues fads that, if you're church is with-it, will just have to present--or else your people will never attain the level of spiritual maturity that they should (kinda like Jabez).

Anyway, the following quote is from http://www.gty.org/Blog/B100303:

"Evangelical fad surfing. Contemporary evangelicals have therefore become very much like 'children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about with every wind of doctrine' (Eph. 4: 14). They follow whatever is the latest popular trend. They buy whatever is the current best seller. They line up to see any celebrity who speaks spiritual-sounding language. They watch eagerly for the next Hollywood movie with any 'spiritual' theme or religious imagery that they can latch on to. And evangelicals discuss these fads and fashions endlessly, as if every cultural icon that captures their attention had profound and serious spiritual significance.

Evangelical churchgoers desperately want their churches to stay on the leading edge of whatever is currently in vogue in the evangelical community. It almost seems like ancient history now, but for a while, any church that wanted to be in fashion had to sponsor seminars on how to pray the prayer of Jabez. But woe to the church that was still doing Jabez when The Purpose-Driven Life took center stage. By then, any church that wanted to retain its standing and credibility in the evangelical movement had better be doing 'Forty Days of Purpose.' And if your church didn’t get through the 'Forty Days' in time to host group studies or preach a series of sermons about The Da Vinci Code before the Hollywood movie version came out, then your church was considered badly out of touch with what really matters."

Time will tell....

Paul J. Scharf
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Joined: Tue, Jul 21 2009
Posts: 577
On the other hand...

Bryan,

On the other hand, I have been going to fundamental churches for 25-plus years, and have learned almost nothing about Biblical financial wisdom in them.

A few bad examples -- but not much positive teaching. Unless you consider, "Lord, you keep the preacher humble and we'll keep him poor" to be good teaching.

I agree with MacArthur's quote wholeheartedly. I am not interested in Ramsey because FPU is the latest fad (if it is -- at least it obviously isn't among some SI readers) but because it is addressing an area of grave concern where our churches are desperately lacking.

(I know of one fundamental church right now where the suggestion has been made to take out a six-figure loan to make roof repairs.)

What we really haven't gotten to the bottom of here is why people are opposed to Ramsey. If it is because they already totally have a handle on their finances and think he is too liberal, then this discussion really isn't for them in the first place.

But one thing we have learned is that at least some people are opposed because they do not buy Ramsey's most basic premises. To me, that simply demonstrates the need. If Ramsey's personality and methods turn them off, they need to listen to someone else with the same message.

My fear is that this whole discussion is going to turn off some soon-to-be-college graduate who is getting ready to go into the real world with $100K+ in student loans between him and his bride-to-be, and he is going to read Mark's article and a smattering of the comments and decide that Ramsey is an opportunistic lunatic, which is so far from reality. I just find that to be very sad. Sad

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The views I express are purely my own. However, I am happy to promote the great ministries with which I work:
I minister for www.SermonAudio.com/Whitcomb.
I do freelance writing for www.RegularBaptistPress.org.
I speak through www.IMISOS.org.

RPittman
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Joined: Tue, Sep 15 2009
Posts: 1170
Differing philosophies, same practices...................

I agree with Dave Ramsey on financial practices. Most of his practical advice is good and sound. However, I am opposed to his foundational principles. Dave Ramsey is a Capitalist and I am not. Oh, before you shut me off, hear me out and allow me to explain. I am not a Socialist or anything close to a Socialist. I am a very strong proponent of the Free Market but I am just not of the Capitalist brand. Capitalism, you see, is just one particular view of Free Market economics although it is often portrayed as the only alternative to Socialism.

There are really only two views of economics—either a Free Market view or a Managed Market view (i.e. Socialism). All views—including Communism, Fascism, Fabian Socialism, Christian Socialism, Capitalism, etc.—lie somewhere in between two extremes. Theories run the gamut from laissez faire to totalitarian control. For the most part, it is a continuum with views of various nuances defining the positions.

Capitalism, as we shall see, is only one view under the broad umbrella of Free Market philosophy, it is often misrepresented as the only alternative to Socialism. Actually, both Socialism and Capitalism have much in common and their commonality may outweigh their differences. Both Socialism and Capitalism are trends to centralization with the difference being the locus of control—private or public. Socialism is the public ownership and control of capital whereas Capitalism is the private ownership and control of capital. Capitalism, although often portrayed as entrepreneurial, is a centralizing force and anti-entrepreneurial in the long run. Only during deregulation or technological advancement does entrepreneurship flourish under Capitalism. This can be clearly seen in the computer industry. Are there more or fewer software companies than a decade ago? Are there more or fewer hardware manufacturers than a decade ago? Likewise, we are seeing the centralization of banking.

Capitalism, as we know it today, grew out of the Social Darwinism of the late nineteenth century. Although the Social Darwinism has been largely abandoned, it still has residual ideas lurking in capitalistic thought and rhetoric. The Darwinian concept of survival of the fittest may no longer be professed but it is practiced. This makes Capitalism amoral—without moral scruples or principles as long as it's legal. Even the revered Milton Friedman reputedly said, “The only obligation of a manager is to make a profit.” The bottom line justifies all. It is an all-for-me mentality that fits well with a narcissistic generation brought up on selfism.

The differences between the systems revolve round two questions—ownership and decision-making. Ownership is who owns the capital goods. Decision-making involves the three economic questions of output (what will be produced), input (how will it be produced) and distribution (who will profit). The difference between Free Market philosophy and Socialist philosophy is private ownership and private decision-making versus public ownership and public decision-making respectively. Although both support private ownership and private decision-making, Capitalism and Free Market thought differ on where the emphasis should fall. Capitalism places the emphasis on ownership—the capital—whereas Free Market philosophy puts the emphasis on decision-making. Thus, Capitalism is inherently materialistic and Free Market philosophy stresses the moral and right choices in economics. Capitalism, needless to say, is much more satisfying to the greed of the flesh than the moral restraints of right actions. I am a proponent of Free Market economics rather than Capitalism.